Senate BIll 5

S

Suburban Cowboyz

PR Addict
Being a public employee you can be sure that I am against SB5. The bill and it's supporters have really painted public employees out to be villains. I also believe that the shady tactics used to get it passed and the republican opposition says something about the bill itself. I know many riders who are public employees - Police, Fire teachers etc. I am just curious to what your thoughts are. Be honest, for / against etc.




If I were in government - I would close down 1 out of every 5 golf courses and make it a motocross track! That's my platform and I am sticking to it.
 
http://www.aolnews.com/2011/03/02/ohio-sb-5-the-anti-collective-bargaining-bill-explained/

An explanation oh HB5. The bill is about 600 pages. Personally I am for HB5. Any move to lower the budget is the right one. Jobs are not lost for sure, just responsibility brought back. Organized labor is out of control and is no longer needed in our economy. In the private sector you are paying 30% more or higher for the same quality work that a qualified non union company can provide. The same happens in our government with its employees. Not wages so much as benefits , but that is just my opinion
 
Being a Deputy Sheriff, I am all for SB5. As long as it doesn't stop at us! Once your done screwing the Public employees, I believe its time to move on to the private sector. Lets start with the UAW and the United Farm Workers. This will greatly reduce the cost of vehicles and food, which should help us public servants a little and possibly even cut the deficit a little. Then I say we move on to anyone involved with the Teamsters, ya know since they control everything else.

Now I know what your all thinking, "PDRacer, I'm already under paid for my talents." As it was mentioned above, we could easily save 30% by utilizing non union workers, hell we could go one step further and just hire illegal immigrants at a 60% cost savings. No wait, I'm not sure that would help since they don't pay taxes. Oh well, thats way more thinking than I need to do right now.

While we all ponder on ways to screw the middle class, let's not forget that we need to keep voting for the overpaid morons who continue to vote on there own wages, and just love to give billions away to CEO's who FAILED at running Americas corporations! Why should they care, it's our money right?

Just remember guys, you get what you pay for!
 
hershey said:
Organized labor is out of control and is no longer needed in our economy. In the private sector you are paying 30% more or higher for the same quality work that a qualified non union company can provide.
Click to expand...

Not entirely factual statements.

As an electrical contractor your men (or women) should be paid comensurate to their education, experience, skill level and ongoing job performance. A good Journeyman in any trade should be fairly paid and well benefited for their services. Unfortunately there have been many, many "non-union" contractors and employers who will and have not paid fair and competitive wages and benefits. This is the whole reason that collective bargaining exist.

As a non-union contractor/employer, if you are not paying wages that are competitive for the trade and skill sets, you are at risk of losing your help. The competive wage is determined by unions as a result of collective bargaining. If you are paying your workers union scale and giving them compareable benifits, then they can thank unions for that as well.

I happen to know for a fact, that in the electrical trade, the size of the construction jobs that you bid are limited to your ability to man up the job, and get it finished under contracted time lines. A union contractor has an unlimited manpower resource of highly skilled tradesman that is only a phone call away.

We have a school project in our county that turned into a disaster by construction standards, and the last that I heard is still tied up in court lawsuits because the non-union contractors that grossly underbid the jobs struggled to secure skilled manpower to complete the job. And the quality of some of the work was horrific.

Yes, unions have their issues.
Remember, if companies, corporations, local, state, and federal government bodies have labor contracts that they feel are out of line........Guess what?................................... They negotiated and signed the contracts!

And for the record: I have been in the trade for 30 years, 15 years non-union, and 15 years union. I spent 10 years in maintenance management (hands on still), and I have bargained contracts and been a steward.

Remember, these teachers and public workers take care of our kids and others, they deserve and work for what they get.

The blame goes to the politicians, Wall Street and the greedy corporate banking institutions.
 
My mom works for the federal government as a VA nurse. Even though she's not part of the union, it still helps her salary. Personally though I'm against it, mostly because a good percent of the union workers now have become incredibly lazy. Even alot of teachers go to the "I get paid if you learn or not" motto. Now before anyone goes against me, I promise you that there are alot of good, hard working people in the unions, the whole VA system works harder then private employees. They do alot of good for the people who deserved their seinority. There are still really really good teachers, as a matter of fact I learned you can find them at the local tracks. I think the bill should be passed, but only if there is some other way to protect the salarys' of hard workers who deserve better treatment.

Just my $0.02. Please don't try to run me off the track, I mean no offense. haha
 
We must close union offices, confiscate their money and put their leaders in prison. We must reduce workers salaries and take away their right to strike."
Adolf Hitler,
May 2, 1933
-Sound familiar?
 
NQ1965 said:
Not entirely factual statements.

As an electrical contractor your men (or women) should be paid comensurate to their education, experience, skill level and ongoing job performance. A good Journeyman in any trade should be fairly paid and well benefited for their services. Unfortunately there have been many, many "non-union" contractors and employers who will and have not paid fair and competitive wages and benefits. This is the whole reason that collective bargaining exist.

As a non-union contractor/employer, if you are not paying wages that are competitive for the trade and skill sets, you are at risk of losing your help. The competive wage is determined by unions as a result of collective bargaining. If you are paying your workers union scale and giving them compareable benifits, then they can thank unions for that as well.

I happen to know for a fact, that in the electrical trade, the size of the construction jobs that you bid are limited to your ability to man up the job, and get it finished under contracted time lines. A union contractor has an unlimited manpower resource of highly skilled tradesman that is only a phone call away.

We have a school project in our county that turned into a disaster by construction standards, and the last that I heard is still tied up in court lawsuits because the non-union contractors that grossly underbid the jobs struggled to secure skilled manpower to complete the job. And the quality of some of the work was horrific.

Yes, unions have their issues.
Remember, if companies, corporations, local, state, and federal government bodies have labor contracts that they feel are out of line........Guess what?................................... They negotiated and signed the contracts!

And for the record: I have been in the trade for 30 years, 15 years non-union, and 15 years union. I spent 10 years in maintenance management (hands on still), and I have bargained contracts and been a steward.

Remember, these teachers and public workers take care of our kids and others, they deserve and work for what they get.

The blame goes to the politicians, Wall Street and the greedy corporate banking institutions.
Click to expand...

Not entirely factual statements either........

First off why do you think so many jobs have been shipped overseas ? Your wonderful "collective bargaining" has raised the cost of living through the roof ! Why is it that the " collective bargaining" determines a fair wage ? I personally know electrical journeymen in the union that I wouldnt trust to wire a residential receptacle yet they somehow made it through 5 years of union school and earn $40 hr with benefits. And if I were a union contractor I wouldnt be allowed to let him go from my employ. I have employees that have been with me for 15 years and have been approached by the union to jump ship. They are still here for a reason, they feel well compensated for there work and enjoy the work environment.

Yes the size of work I do is limited by the fact that I only have 10 field technicians. But at the same time a small union contractor who doesn't do large work isnt going to pull 10 journeymen from the hall and do your school project properly either. It takes alot more than manpower to do large jobs. For that matter I can call down to tradesmen or CLC and have ten men on the job tomorrow if I wanted to. Because it is easier for a union contractor to get help you will normally see them on large open bid jobs. However since the bid is open the prices at which they bid the are lower than prevailing wage bids. A win win for everyone. If you want to study I am sure there are far more jobs that end up in court for performance on prevailing wage work that involve union contractors than nonunion. As a whole a properly trained open shop employee and a union employee are going to do the same quality of work. In my time of electrical work I have seen just as much ' horrific ' work from so called union journeymen as non.

What I do see time and time again on the larger jobs we contract is the difference in work ethic. Hands down the nonunion workers work harder than the union worker. Many of the larger jobs we do might use a union hvac , plumbing or erection contractor (ok no perverted comments please ! LOL). No matter what time they arrive at a job they dont even touch a tool until starting time, they take their 2 15 min breaks and the half hour lunch. And heaven forbid you ask them a question regarding the project while they are on one of these breaks. Unions as a whole have created a lackluster workforce. I know there are good HARD working union employees but as a whole the stereo typical union employee is just that. And this conclusion I have drawn from years in the field not just because I am an open shop. I currently employ 3 technicians that are former union employees. What does that tell you about the union ?

And to say "Remember, if companies, corporations, local, state, and federal government bodies have labor contracts that they feel are out of line........Guess what?................................... They negotiated and signed the contracts!" Come on, really ? Seriously ? When has any union employer signed a new contract that made them happy ? Each new contract costs the employer more money. And , unless you want us to believe the employer pays for those increases, WE AS CONSUMERS AND TAX PAYERS pay for those increases.

The reason jobs are going overseas or into Mexico and south is because our cost of living has been raised in this fashion for too long. We are paying a premium for workers that we only ask average or below average work from. I am not talking about knowledge or skill , I am talking about performance. On any average job I would put my employees up against any union journeyman. We may not always be the best but we will be our share of the time. Why should my customers pay 30% more for the same quality ? Why should the american consumer and taxpayer ? Well large corporations arent. They can pay a qualified worker $5 hr in china (which is about as good as making $30 hr here due to cost of living) to assemble a vacuum cleaner and ship it here cheaper than paying the union worker here $55 hr for wages and benefits.

Yes the blame goes to the politicians, Wall Street and the greedy corporate banking institutions but you can trace lots of union money funding all of them. And who pays for that ? WE DO AS CONSUMERS AND TAXPAYERS.

I am for HB5,I am for bringing that movement into the private sector. Unions were a needed thing early in our economic development but now they are bringing this country down. HB5 is a restructuring tool not a removal tool. It is the first step to help our state get spending under control. It is not a fix all, just a start.
 
Stinkdad said:
We must close union offices, confiscate their money and put their leaders in prison. We must reduce workers salaries and take away their right to strike."
Adolf Hitler,
May 2, 1933
-Sound familiar?
Click to expand...

LOL....... Not even close to what HB5 is !
 
Hershey you make some points that carry some weight and we've heard it all before. Again more of the blame game.

A co-worker made a comment to me once that stuck: "Why is it that we are always so focused at taking money and benifits away from others, lets just concentrate on getting it for every worker!"

Companies, goverments and politicians love to see us at each others throats on these issues, it keeps the heat off of them. China's middle class is finally growing and it is becoming more and more expensive to manufacture there and companies are beginning to pull out. That is what NAFTA was supposed to do. Slave labor is always going to be cheaper than American wages.

A final parting thought, I think it's great that you pay your guys well and give them a good work environment. There are a lot of contractors and companies that will not do that and I have worked for them.

I hope and pray that all our local school employees make a very good living and are well benefited. Same for our police, firefighters and the rest of them. If they are well cared for and happy, then they will take pride in what they do. And that affects us all doesn't it?
 
This can be debated for hours. Union members are against it. Non-union members are for it. What's funny is what some of the general public think about SB5. They think their taxes will go down and that they will get raises. No going to happen. I have 22 years in the pension and all 22 years in the union. My occupation was my chioce just as other people make choices where they want to work!!!
 
NQ1965 said:
That is what NAFTA was supposed to do. Slave labor is always going to be cheaper than American wages.
Click to expand...

This is my point exactly, the govt and unions want us to think that is why the labor rates are so cheap in other countries !!! NOT the case ! There are sweat shops and slave labor yes, not common though. Do you really think the engineers and auto workers for hyundai, kia and the likes are under paid slave labor ? Really ? The same was said about Honda, toyota and others in the 70's and 80's. The truth is those workers are every bit as good as american workers and get paid a fair wage for the cost of living in those countries. Obviously the engineers are as good as ours because look at the quality of the vehicles.

My step mother is from vietnam. You have no idea what the cost of living is in other countries until you see it first hand. $5 US can support a family VERY WELL for a week in her country. Our Dollar is strong and our cost of living is 50 times what it is over there. These people live as well as we do on the wages they are paid.

It is not slave labor when a fair wage is paid ! Am I using slave labor because I dont pay my employees the rates collective bargaining says is right ?


Slave labor ........
 
As those countries further develope and a middle class emerges, and costs go up so will the wage and benefits demands (especially the longer they are under "Dick-Tator rule".)

[It is not slave labor when a fair wage is paid ! Am I using slave labor because I dont pay my employees the rates collective bargaining says is right ?]

To this, you will pay whatever you and your employees deem acceptable and if your workers are happy then that is great.

There is a true need and calling for smaller non-union contractors like yourself, and all of the needs of collective bargaining don't apply to you. But things are a whole lot more complicated in a work environment that isn't as cozy as yours.

There are companies that will screw their employees in a heart beat if you let them. (I've worked for some)
 
I am in favor of SB5. SB5 only pertains to government employees unions, and has nothing to do with most of the union jobs being discussed here. While I personally dislike unions in the private sector (having been forced to join 3 of them in my lifetime), if the workers truly want one, they are entitled to one. In the public sector, I see no need for government employees to be unionized. If somebody can describe what state or local government entity has a history of slave wages, sweat shops, safety violations, underage children working, unlawful firings, etc., then they might have an argument. Id also like to know that if the government has such a bad record as an employer that employees need a union, then why are they put in charge for making all the rules for non-government employers? The only problem I have with the bill is that it focuses too much on unionized public employees, and not enough on non-union public employees who tend to benefit far more from abuses. They seem to do pretty well without unions. The only difference is that city council can freeze their wages during a crisis, while they are obligated to pay union raises whether they have the money or not. I know they like to throw out "teachers", "firemen", and "policemen", because its not PC to ever say anything remotely negative about these professions, but the fact is that most public employees are not in daily life threatening situations. When you use terms like "city worker", "street department", "meter reader", or "Carl Munday" we think of 3 hour lunches at a strip club or 3 guys leaning on shovels while the new guy does the work. It gives a whole different mental picture of government employee. And I wont even go into some of the scandals involving people in the three "noblest professions" right here in Rittman. I would like to see it end up on a reforendum, though, and would be willing to accept the results. I dont think the amount of noise is really representative of the amount of opposition it has. I think it has enough support to win on a referendum by a good margin. Unions have been dying for years, and the government workers are their last major foothold, and I think they fear that if government employees are not required to join the unions, enough of them would prefer to take their union dues home to their families, and the unions would not retain enough power to have any major influence, or fund the democratic party.
 
Maybe not the assembling and designers of automotive plants, but what about all the wiring, individual bolts and collectively everything needed to build the car? The made in tawain interior, is that made at a competitive wage?

Not entirely factual: "Hands down the nonunion workers work harder than the union worker." Then why is UPS more efficient and can get a package to your doorstep faster than Fed Ex? UPS is Teamster, FedEx non-union.

If this country's politicians want to fix the problems of the world then go after China. They keep their currency value artificially low.

Unions aren't the scum of the earth. They "collectively bargained" the 40 hour work week that most NON union affiliated employees adhere to. And it's not more more more more, this contract for UPS we lost 100% prescription benefits, and we all agreed on it. I agreed on that and LOWER raise rates at 2 times a year instead of one. Instead of 85 cents in August, we would take 1/2 in August, then half in February. Saving the company 6 months of a raise having to pay out to its many employees. When I started yearly raises were $1.15. This being a private union doesn't matter with SB5, but just an example.

Public sector employees make more than private sector employees across the board...Like the VA nurse and the Non-VA nurse. (when accounting for benefit packages, pension and hourly rate/salary) Public and private should be a level playing field.

Atleast the public sector could talk to congress before SB5, but after Senate bill 5 now they can't even talk to congress about any kind of collective bargaining.

If people want services they need to pay taxes. The tax cut "trickle down theory" doesn't work. Fire, Police are vital and needed, if there is no collective bargaining then everyone can just sack up and pay more taxes without voting on it so these services can be provided.


How about this for non-union. A 62 year old man, hardworking... was fired from his Full time road crew job (not ODOT), and rehired as part time so that he couldn't get benefits. They work him 39.5 hours a week. Unions are needed to protect b/s like that from occuring, especially after a guy has 28 years in a workplace to lose his benefits when he needs them more than ever. I'm glad you treat your employees well Hershey, but there are people who don't treat their employees so well. Until we get 100% honest American business owners, we need the union.
 
Shut-up George......You don't know what you are talking about.
Go back to dreaming about racing LL +25 class on a 150.....
 
I knew I shouldn't of gotten into the politics thread on pitracer. I never know what I'm talking about. Politics are sweet.
 
It's been good conversation. And we can agree to disagree and respectfully go on as motocross friends. After all, you have family members that you don't agree with too.

I've been watching this mess on the national budget issue, and it seems to me that if congress doesn't find a way to get that mess squared away, then all of the individual states are going to sink anyway.

We're all gonna take a skinning!
 
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