District 11 Proposals for 2011

Woodys Race Photos said:
Yeah the district is gone without the fair series. Why not just pay points per moto? That would be fair to all involved and maybe the simplest solution.

There is no doubt that you can finish top 5 in your class without running the fair series, but there are always a few that race all the fairs and take the top couple spots on shear volume of races.
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I agree. the last thing anyone wants is to take away from any promoter, Thats why I think the best of your top 10 - 15 RPV would work. also like the half point or scored per moto idea or Bcliffs score (10 or min series plus any 5 additional promotors points).
Fact is with all these Ideas you can't tell me D-11 can't come up with a better compromise.
 
The problem with the RPV points is that mini classes don't earn them. I think you don't start earning them until you are 12 years of age.

There are lots of great ideas out there to fix the points system and to help bring bigger turn outs to D11 races but in order to do this there has to be change. The district is ran and vote on by people that have no interest in our (MX that is) division. The officers and promoters from GP, harescamble, hillclimb, and road all vote on the rules and amendments that effect motocross and that is wrong if you ask me!

I think so much progress could be made if the officers would quit worrying about AMS walking away and going outlaw. There needs to be policies put in place to prevent this situation from happening. Where would any business be if they planned their business around one customer and then made their decisions based on whether that customer would get mad and take their business elsewhere?

AMS held 22 races this past year and 13 of them were on week nights. The other 9 races were on weekends and holidays. Of the 13 races held on week nights the average turn out was around 125 entries. I haven't finished looking at the numbers just yet but at first glance it looks like less than 5% bought their D11 card at one of those 13 races and only ended up racing just one race. My point is this: AMS might be selling a lot of D11 memberships but they are being sold to the D11 faithful that will race again somewhere else in D11 as well. If it wasn't for all those fair races we would just end up getting our D11 card somewhere else. Those membership numbers for AMS are attributed to the fact that AMS usually run the first couple races of the year too.

How many of you on here have renewed your D11 membership at an AMS event? Lots of us have...why? because it is convenient. There is always a fair race coming up every week. One of the problems is the district puts too much merit into thinking AMS is getting a large amount of first time and one time fair racer (AKA cheap memberships) but no one has taken the time to crunch the numbers too prove this.

The other four divisions are scared to vote agaist AMS because they believe AMS it the glue holding D11 together and if they walk away then that means D11 goes away for them too since we are all in the same boat. Don't take this the wrong way either. I supported AMS this year more than any other promoter (we done 16 of the 22 races this year) and we had a lot of fun doing it too. We like fair races, but we also like the big tracks too.

I think the first big fix to D11 is to start with eliminating weekday races or reduce the points earned to half of what they are now. I've always been told you can't have your cake and eat it too but in the case of AMS you can get it all. Where else can you race a series and win both the promoters series and D11 championships at the same time and never run anything but one promoters events? Then get series end awards for both series.

Of the 27 classes offered in D11, 15 of those classes are being led by the same riders that just won championships with AMS's Ohio County Fair Series. Chew on that one for a while.

Sorry for the long winded reply but I just feel like something needed to be said.
 
Another propasal that will probably get shot down is to keep promoters from scheduling races on the same day. Why would you want to compete with someone thats in the same organization as you and split the turn out instead of having less events with a greater turn out. I'm no rocket scientist but
it's common sense to know that it cost the same thing to have a race with 50 riders as it does to have 300. So why would you want to have a race on the same day as another in the same district. There answer is people will go where they want, People will go to the only club having a race that is going on that day. Some may stay home or practice but a majority will go to the race that's going on. If they had less events with more riders the would make more money. That will never pass because some promoters in the district no need to state the obvious aren't smart enough to figure out the the only ones they are hurting is thereselves!

The other thing is they treat any new promoters like crap and schedule races on top of them. This spring chilitown had a race and treaty scheduled on top of them and we went to treaty because it seemed more people in our class were heading there, Drive all the way there for them to cancel because they didn't have enough riders. How stupid was it to schedule on that day! Puts a bad taste in your mouth!
 
it is crazy to think district 11's problems are due to AMS... it seems to me more of the blame would go to the fact that most riders/racers would rather just practice.. take a place like Briarcliff. best track prep, much cheaper than racing, ride all you want,etc.. I mean really the biggest turn outs I have been to this year are Apple cabin and briarcliff
 
D 11 does not have to support the fair series with seperate awards for them to be in the district. They all ready give awards for their series. Just because they are in the district does not mean the fair races need to pay points......they ARE NOT going to ditch D 11......I think they need the district too, and running outlaw would eliminate quite a few from running their outdoor track. I for one would probably not go if it was not a AMA track. I also think you should have to ride 5 tracks to be included in year end points. Count your best 15 or however many you ride, and must be from 5 tracks. No fair races count, AMS outdoor track does count. Both the fair races and the AMS outdoor track count for the AMS series awards. This keeps people supporting more than one or two tracks, and also encourages people to ride at least 15 races per year. I think this would HELP to promote people hitting perhaps 3 or 5 more races per year, not hinder it. As it stands now (40+ is a perfect example), if you run the fair races with 4 or 5 riders then you are at the top of the points. If I ran the fair races, I would be in the top 3, no doubt.....but I dont.
 
AMS is the glue holding d-11 together. You just said yourself you raced 16 of their races. The fact of the matter is with all the classes these days (27 you say?) I'd rather go practice on Sunday than sit around all day to ride twice. Even at a fair you may only ride a couple times but you are there two hours. At an outdoor two moto format race you can expect a 12 hour day or more when you account for drive time,and I am pretty sure that most people would rather go practice these days. What I am trying to say is that if the district steps on the toes of AMS he could easily turn that into his own series. The district would be gone in two years or less without AMS. The reason all of these guys win the series is because they race more. Just so happens it has been at AMS fairs. I would be willing to be there are enough races with other promoters throughout the year to get in just as many races. People just aren't doing it. I have sat back and listened to people complain about this fair series for years now and how it sucks to lose a series because the people only race them. If I were AMS i would leave the district. Sell my own membership for AMS riders and keep all the money for myself. He would still get the same turnouts and actually make more money I would assume. I do agree that points per moto could become a pretty good step in the right direction to make everyone happy. Bet we still have the same series leaders though.

We have already lost district 12 in Ohio. It is only a matter of time until we lose District 11.
 
D 11 would survive without AMS. It is not D 12....district 11 is fairly strong. There are some decent tracks to hold it together also. I assure you the fastest guys in the Vet classes for the most part, are NOT running many if any fair races. So someone who wins the district is not the fastest guy, it is the guy that rode the most races, with the least amount of competition. I assure you, go to DMC, or Dirt Country, there are 20 plus 30 and 40 riders. Most of the top ten could switch around from moto to moto.....with the exception of a couple guys that are usually top two guys.
 
John, I submitted a proposal like that last year about attending 80% of the promoters to be considered for district champion and it got shot down before it even went to vote because the district secretary (who is a paid officer) said said she didn't have the time to track which riders went where. I don't have a problem with ams they run a very sucessfull business. I just would like to see more riders on sunday.
 
John I agree with most of what you are saying..I raced district 11 a lot back in the 80s (as I am sure you did) and it has always been the case of who ever raced the most won the district. rarely the fastest..I really don't think very many racers chase points. I know when my son raced most of the fair races a few seasons back he really didn't even care about district 11 points, although we went to a few district awards banquets. I was always suprised at how low of a turn out would show up for the district awards banquets. seemed to me most classes would have racers missing from the podiums from each class..
I think the buckeye series, spring series etc are great venues to distribute points and awards for riders who do not want to race 40 or 50 times in a season..just my opinion
 
I am curious...just how much money does everyone think AMS brings to the district anyway? The sanctioning fee per race is $10. They held 22 events this year in only 21 were sanctioned events/ That is $210 to the district right off the bat. Unless I am missing something the only other money coming from AMS is the money dervived from D11 memberships. Lets just say AMS walks away and goes outlaw, the only riders you will lose are the ones that only race AMS events and I challenge anyone to prove to me that that number is substanial. I would guess that number is less than 50. The rest of the some 1100 member of D11 will get their memberships else where instead of with AMS. It pretty simple folks...everyone is brainwashed into thinking D11 can't change because of this.

Lets quit basing our opinions on assumptions and start looking at cold hard facts. AMS will be just fine with any of the proposals that were made. They powers that be are just afraid to make a change.

Once again...I don't want to turn this into a bash AMS thread. They are great for the district and offer a great program, but they (along with other promoters) need to realize we need to change to be able to improve.

If we always do what we have always done, we will always get what we have always got.
 
John,
No where in my post did i say the fastest riders were from the fairs or were winning the championship. I agree it is the person who races the most that wins. Take away all the fairs it will still be the same story. People that are concerned with a district championship will still try to race the most to win it. If you are so concerned about a district championship race a bunch of races. If not quit complaining about it. I went to a district banquet once and go wal mart gift cards lol I think I will just continue racing for fun. No one is getting paid here who cares about a district championship. After re-thinking my earlier post I would say go ahead take the fair points out of the district. AMS does their own banquet and from my experience it has been better than the district. Let them give their own series points. I really don't think there are a large amount of people chasing district points. It is not worth it. The problem is we need to find a way to make it worth it or this district won't last. I don't think this district is strong at all, and it is because there are too many classes and too long of days and that will only keep getting worse.
 
I would love to see AMS go outlaw, then we wouldn't have to buy D11 or AMA cards! I say this because my son races a 50cc miniquad and they are the only folks that have a class that he can compete in. Alot of good points have been made that will never be heard, I say let em die. Everything is wrong compared to the way it was when I raced in the 80s and 90s. Too many classes yet no classes for some, poor scheduling (too many points paying events on the same day) and the points system is a joke. CRA aint no better neither. They need to die by their own greed, then maybe we will be heard. We are also in an age of professional practicers, brought on by the free riding aspect of the sport. The old days only had racing, so that's what ya did, you practiced to race. Practice on Wednesdays and race on the weekends. Freestyle, freeriding is big now and that's what some like to do. There are those that race and those that just moto, nothing wrong with that. It's funny, I put in an old VHS tape of me racing back in 89 to show my 6 year old, wow. 40+ on the gate (125B) and the track was dusty and beat to hell. We never complained about a perfectly prepped track back then, maybe we have gotton soft and whiney over the years. I think with the age of forums, FB, Tweets and such we may be killing it ourselves. "Maybe racers" may read the negatives and think screw it, "I aint going there to race, the track is too lumpy and dry". I dunno, I used to care just so my son could keep enjoying the sport, but the promoters don't listen so screw them! It's all about the money, not the racers. So, I guess I don't care anymore. Next race, Coshocton fair. Hmmmm... I wonder if it is a points paying event? Like the Rock used to say. "It doesn't matter" Man, that was all over the place. Matt. :)
 
Number of races run by top 3 in each class for Motocross 2011

class 1st 2nd 3rd
50cc 4-8 27 28 21
50cc 4-6 27 23 19
50cc 7-8 27 26 20
65 23 27 22
mini jr 23 28 22
mini sr 10 8 8
super mini 17 17 12
schoolboy 12-16 17 15 15
schoolboy 14-16 10 7 5
14-24 24 22 8
25+ A 13 9 8
25+ B 27 23 11
30+ A 10 10 5
30+ B 16 21 20
40+ 23 29 21
125 B/C 24 15 15
250 A 15 5 4
250 B 24 9 7
250 C 22 18 13
OPEN A 7 10 9
OPEN B 26 22 10
OPEN C 21 19 17
WOMEN 12 + 18 19 15
QUAD A/B 4 6 6
QUAD C 18 4 6

There have been 42 possible races this year so far (this is subtracting the cancelled races and the 5 days that there was 2 races scheduled since you couldn't be at both at the same time.) so 29 races have been on the weekend. That's more than any racer has been to this year.

A thought on RPV. If you did good at the beginning of the year wouldn't you just want to stop racing to keep your high score?

If I was to back anything I think what Jeremy has suggested with the 15-10-5 rule would be where I would go.
 
Bill@DEP said:
A thought on RPV. If you did good at the beginning of the year wouldn't you just want to stop racing to keep your high score?
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No, That's the thing. Racers could, and probably would, continue to race (any race by any promoter) to improve your RPV. Knowing you can throw out all except the top 10 or 15 scores. you could race 50 races if you wanted and pick the best top ten or 15 (I like 15 better) and use the stipulations suggested by BC, or not. This may also get people in the gates that may not be participating in that particular Club or Promoters series. Sort of like the Buckeye series within the different promoters series. We have participated in that, and had it not been for that, may never have made the trip to Treaty City, or some of the other tracks further from home.
Why would I drive that far to race 2 or 3 races when I need a minimum amount to compete in their series. What is the incentive? Also what if I missed some races due to injury or what have you. I have no reason to race that promoters series as I am no longer in the running. unless as stipulated above I could attempt to improve my overall RPV in D-11. But unless I am going to be able to compete in D-11 against sheer volume racers, Then I probably won't make that trip. You have to give an incentive that is level for all, Racers and promoters.
 
I dont recall the exact number of district memberships sold by the fair races, but I do recall it being a large majority. I guess if anyone who is currently in know disagrees with this, please correct me.

The only reason that the district feels compelled to coddle the fair series is because of the banquets. The memberships sold at fair races help fund the district banquets, not just mx.

I dont think you can just eliminate the fair races, you just need real mx that means something, thats gets people to race, not just talk, but actually motivates them to load up, drive, and race.
 
BriarcliffMx said:
I dont recall the exact number of district memberships sold by the fair races, but I do recall it being a large majority. I guess if anyone who is currently in know disagrees with this, please correct me.

The only reason that the district feels compelled to coddle the fair series is because of the banquets. The memberships sold at fair races help fund the district banquets, not just mx.
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None of the membership money goes for the banquets that is entirely on the Thrills race which it is why we felt we needed to reschedule this weekend. What the money does go for is mainly two things to cover the cost of the office of the office manager and the newsletter. These expenses right now run about $20,000 and with the only income being memberships, 1100 members at $15 we will lose about $4000 this year. Of those 1100 memberships over 450 came from AMS so guess what the outcome would be if we are wrong and we lose many of those.
 
Bill@DEP said:
None of the membership money goes for the banquets that is entirely on the Thrills race which it is why we felt we needed to reschedule this weekend. What the money does go for is mainly two things to cover the cost of the office of the office manager and the newsletter. These expenses right now run about $20,000 and with the only income being memberships, 1100 members at $15 we will lose about $4000 this year. Of those 1100 memberships over 450 came from AMS so guess what the outcome would be if we are wrong and we lose many of those.
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Thanks Bill, I have been out of the loop there for awhile. Trying to survive on a memory that is severely overloaded.
 
Anyone have an idea of how many of those that signed up with AMS ONLY race AMS? I would say that number would be less than the 450 stated. Can't lump the racers that happened to sign up there by default. Honestly, I'd never race any of thier races if it wasn't for the Buckeye Series. A track that cancels after 20 minutes of rain and the sun is shining afterwards is one I don't like to support. But really, why should they care, they already got our $60 right?

I've watched year after year of guys winning the district who only run the fair races. I'd be happy with either guideline change. Either would be better than the system in place now. The 15-10-5 would probably appease AMS, but only counting the weekend and holiday races, I presume, would be easier to keep track of the points. An idea on a way for the district to cut costs....why not just distribute the newsletter electronically? Post a copy on the D11 website. Request everyone's email address when signing up for D11 and then send out via email? This way you could still sell the advertisements and cut out the printing costs? Or maybe only print a few such as for bike shops, etc?

In the business world, the companies and businesses that survive are the ones that change with the times and continually stive to move forward. The ones that remain the same and don't change with the times eventually become stagnant and disappear.
 
I would like to know the amount of memberships sold at their first race of the year. It is at their home track and usually one of the first district races of the year. Then how many were actually at a fair. This information would help alot to make an educated decision. Its funny (sort of) that everyone of these ideas has been proposed in recent years with no success. Even the idea of electronic newsletters. I was told we couldn't sell advertising then. They lost me at that point.
 
First race of the season was Lake Bailey, then COCR, then April 3 at AMS Marysville track. My guess is the turnouts at Lake Bailey and COCR were light and a lot of District memberships were sold at the (first big turnout) AMS track. So, yeah, let’s just credit AMS with selling all those memberships. *heavy sarcasm*

We didn't purchase a district membership this year... we raced Fasttrax LL area qualifier and Sunday Creek regional. That's it. So (fortunately) saved ourselves 12 bucks and still raced locally.

It's not that much money. Really. Just hate giving the money to an organization that has totally ignored rider's (member's) suggestions for years. Until District 11 realizes they are an organization with no other purpose but to serve their member's interests, they are doomed... who needs them?
 
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