hershey comment?
- Thread starter k01
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hershey
PR Elite
Lol! Not surprising!
I cant imagine a time or place where anyone would ever turn down qualified help for disaster victims based on union affiliation! Can you imagine what would any union member would say if they were deprived help from some one based on the fact they were a union worker????
At a car accident scene...... Open shop worker ... "Sir are you ok??? Your bleeding pretty badly and you hand is laying in the road!"..... Union worker " No please get some help , could you call an ambulance and my wife ? " ....... Open shop worker " Id really like to help you sir, are you a union member?".... Union member " Why yes I am, are you in the brother hood?" ...... Open shop worker " Ooohhh Im sorry I cant help you, Im not in the brother hood!, Bleed out fool!"
I can say I have not experienced very much animosity from unions over the years. When times are good and everyone is busy I normally get no flak at all. And actually 3 of my best friends are union members. But the recent turndown in the economy has had its toll. I have had 2 of my workers approached and assimilated into the brotherhood to try and reduce my work force. They feel threatened ( as they should) by the growing ability of the open shops to perform the same work for a better price and at the same time have happy employees.
The expense that could be saved on the national budget simply by eliminating the requirement for prevailing wage on projects would be staggering. They did it with all school projects and saved Billions of dollars over a 5 year period and yet we still have great schools standing and not falling apart. Unions had their day, they were absolutely needed but in todays world they have drove jobs overseas, not the republicans.
Thanks k01, Rant over ! Lol!!!!
I await the probable bashing to begin!
I cant imagine a time or place where anyone would ever turn down qualified help for disaster victims based on union affiliation! Can you imagine what would any union member would say if they were deprived help from some one based on the fact they were a union worker????
At a car accident scene...... Open shop worker ... "Sir are you ok??? Your bleeding pretty badly and you hand is laying in the road!"..... Union worker " No please get some help , could you call an ambulance and my wife ? " ....... Open shop worker " Id really like to help you sir, are you a union member?".... Union member " Why yes I am, are you in the brother hood?" ...... Open shop worker " Ooohhh Im sorry I cant help you, Im not in the brother hood!, Bleed out fool!"
I can say I have not experienced very much animosity from unions over the years. When times are good and everyone is busy I normally get no flak at all. And actually 3 of my best friends are union members. But the recent turndown in the economy has had its toll. I have had 2 of my workers approached and assimilated into the brotherhood to try and reduce my work force. They feel threatened ( as they should) by the growing ability of the open shops to perform the same work for a better price and at the same time have happy employees.
The expense that could be saved on the national budget simply by eliminating the requirement for prevailing wage on projects would be staggering. They did it with all school projects and saved Billions of dollars over a 5 year period and yet we still have great schools standing and not falling apart. Unions had their day, they were absolutely needed but in todays world they have drove jobs overseas, not the republicans.
Thanks k01, Rant over ! Lol!!!!
I await the probable bashing to begin!
NQ1965
PR Elite
Had to go here didn't we?
Don't worry.....when Romney gets in office, he's going to give Labor the big bone, which in turn will cause more division between the dems and GOP, and the general public. A new house and senate will be voted in from public outcry and we will have 4 more years of washington gridlock.
Can't we all just get allong?
Don't worry.....when Romney gets in office, he's going to give Labor the big bone, which in turn will cause more division between the dems and GOP, and the general public. A new house and senate will be voted in from public outcry and we will have 4 more years of washington gridlock.
Can't we all just get allong?
NQ1965
PR Elite
Hershey, you can take comfort in knowing that the attacks on unions and organized labor are taking their toll in America. But make no mistake, this comes at great cost to the working middle class. The erosion of wages, benifits, pensions and workers rights is happening, and it effects everything.
As we have talked about this before, I can understand and respect your position on the issue, viewed from your world, but big business and certain government bodies have no compassion for labor.
(For some reason when typing all of this I can't quit thinking about those city officials in Bell, California that voted themselves humongous salaries at the cities expense and got away with it for quite some time, and all of the benefits that congress has voted for themselves.)
There are certainly aspects about unions that are not good, but that doesn't necessarily make it all bad.
As we have talked about this before, I can understand and respect your position on the issue, viewed from your world, but big business and certain government bodies have no compassion for labor.
(For some reason when typing all of this I can't quit thinking about those city officials in Bell, California that voted themselves humongous salaries at the cities expense and got away with it for quite some time, and all of the benefits that congress has voted for themselves.)
There are certainly aspects about unions that are not good, but that doesn't necessarily make it all bad.
hershey
PR Elite
Funny thing, Pit and I were just joking not long ago about how there hasnt been a union post in a while!!!
Seriously though, I realize not all aspects of unions are counter productive and not all members are bad. But in general there is a feeling taught that unions are the best thing out there and non union shops are the scabs of the country and should be brought down at all costs. This article is proof of how bad it can be. I have never experienced that bad of a time with the union other than them threatening to take me to court if I didnt turn over all my payroll info on my employees. It was a bluff because obviously they have no right to do so but I do enough work they want to justify themselves to harass me every now and then.
The simple truth is though our jobs only go overseas because our cost of labor is so much higher than other GROWING economic countries like China, Thiland, Vietnam ect.... And until the cost of labor rises in those countries jobs will continue to go there. Prime example: Auto workers. A person on the assembly line who has a high school education makes about $65 hr with benefits. Thats more than alot of white collar college level employees. This workers does a great job and comes to work every day. Now that includes vacation pay, holiday pay , insurance , retirement ...ect. But still that like 130K a year for a HIGH SCHOOL LEVEL EDUCATION to zip together the same door panels day after day.
Chin so ling over there in Vietnam does the same quality of work, works just as hard for his money and makes about $10 US a day. But the kicker is although $10 a day sounds way to little he actually lives every bit as good as our auto worker. The cost of living there is so cheap that $10 a day provides him with a fantastic life style. Over the years the unions here have driven the cost of living so high that we can no longer compete in a WORLD market. And until the WORLD catches up to our cost of living the jobs will keep moving overseas! That is why you dont see jobs leave here to go to Germany or the UK or France. The cost of living there isnt much cheaper if any than ours so it isnt worth moving jobs there.
Any one want to start a religion thread? Lol
Seriously though, I realize not all aspects of unions are counter productive and not all members are bad. But in general there is a feeling taught that unions are the best thing out there and non union shops are the scabs of the country and should be brought down at all costs. This article is proof of how bad it can be. I have never experienced that bad of a time with the union other than them threatening to take me to court if I didnt turn over all my payroll info on my employees. It was a bluff because obviously they have no right to do so but I do enough work they want to justify themselves to harass me every now and then.
The simple truth is though our jobs only go overseas because our cost of labor is so much higher than other GROWING economic countries like China, Thiland, Vietnam ect.... And until the cost of labor rises in those countries jobs will continue to go there. Prime example: Auto workers. A person on the assembly line who has a high school education makes about $65 hr with benefits. Thats more than alot of white collar college level employees. This workers does a great job and comes to work every day. Now that includes vacation pay, holiday pay , insurance , retirement ...ect. But still that like 130K a year for a HIGH SCHOOL LEVEL EDUCATION to zip together the same door panels day after day.
Chin so ling over there in Vietnam does the same quality of work, works just as hard for his money and makes about $10 US a day. But the kicker is although $10 a day sounds way to little he actually lives every bit as good as our auto worker. The cost of living there is so cheap that $10 a day provides him with a fantastic life style. Over the years the unions here have driven the cost of living so high that we can no longer compete in a WORLD market. And until the WORLD catches up to our cost of living the jobs will keep moving overseas! That is why you dont see jobs leave here to go to Germany or the UK or France. The cost of living there isnt much cheaper if any than ours so it isnt worth moving jobs there.
Any one want to start a religion thread? Lol
MX955
PitRacer Pro
So it's all the Union fault for the cost of living going up...I have a hard time believing this,I think it's more of simple minded pricks like you that cause this problem!
GeorgiePorgie
PR Founding Father
Talk with some natives of china and see if they make a good living as you described.
There is a resident doctor I work with, he said that the wages sucks. Nobody can afford to get out of china. He also said that companies now are outsourcing jobs from china to Vietnam because the Vietnamese wil do it cheaper. The Vietnamese aren't living up a glorious life.
Sounds to me as if big business doesn't give a flying F about it workers. A happy employee used to be in the business plan. Not anymore, it's the happy shareholder, so screw the employee.
I'm glad ups was union or else they would of had us throwing boxes for absolutely nothing and no benefits. Hell, I wish nurses would organize, but the majority are scared of getting in trouble for not being able to get work done, so they punch out and don't get paid for hours of work past their shift. And then the business looks at the weekly numbers and says "oh she can do that job in 11.5 hours" when in reality she doesn't take a lunch and stays 3 hours behind to make sure she finishes all her charting so lawyers won't be on her back.
But, Unions are so bad.
There is a resident doctor I work with, he said that the wages sucks. Nobody can afford to get out of china. He also said that companies now are outsourcing jobs from china to Vietnam because the Vietnamese wil do it cheaper. The Vietnamese aren't living up a glorious life.
Sounds to me as if big business doesn't give a flying F about it workers. A happy employee used to be in the business plan. Not anymore, it's the happy shareholder, so screw the employee.
I'm glad ups was union or else they would of had us throwing boxes for absolutely nothing and no benefits. Hell, I wish nurses would organize, but the majority are scared of getting in trouble for not being able to get work done, so they punch out and don't get paid for hours of work past their shift. And then the business looks at the weekly numbers and says "oh she can do that job in 11.5 hours" when in reality she doesn't take a lunch and stays 3 hours behind to make sure she finishes all her charting so lawyers won't be on her back.
But, Unions are so bad.
NQ1965
PR Elite
I actually happen to agree with you Hershey. It's a damn senseless shame that everybody in all of those other countries don't have our middle class, our pensions and benefits, and wages for the work they do. Damn it......... THEY DESERVE TO MAKE MORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THEY ARE UNDER PAID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
On the New Jersey power lineman and travellers issue there are some other points that have to be taken into consideration. We have to be fair and open minded here Ok!
1st) Lineman do power distribution line work. That is their livelyhood, and it is how they make their living. Hostile weather is just part of the game. None of them donate their time for free, they are all in it for the money. That is what they do. If the state of New Jersey electric utility is a unionized district , then there are jurisdictions that are to be observed.
The utility companies is who should take all of the criticism and the heat. They perform almost no line maintenance, switch yard or substation maintenance anymore. It has gotten rediculous and dangerous, and it's all in the name of business profit for the top of the organization. I think it is amazing how the general public are being forced into installing home power back up generators now that the grid has become so unreliable. This is an outrage. And the public still has to pay them even when they are without power. What a scam!
2) You have the same jurisdictions issue in other lines of work, that occur during crisis situations. Look at law enforcement, they have their city boundaries. Look at all of the battles between ambulance companies. Fire departments, and the list goes on and on.
Storm damage repair is part of what power lineman do. It's nothing personal, it's all business.
Just curious Hershey, doesn't it ever upset you when you get underbid on a big job by a company or contractor is using illegal, or work visa Mexicans? I hope you make a good living but unfortunately there are some out there who think you and your employees are overpaid and they are fighting to take away your work.......And the part that really sucks is that some of the politicians that you are paying tax dollars to support, are helping them.
On the New Jersey power lineman and travellers issue there are some other points that have to be taken into consideration. We have to be fair and open minded here Ok!
1st) Lineman do power distribution line work. That is their livelyhood, and it is how they make their living. Hostile weather is just part of the game. None of them donate their time for free, they are all in it for the money. That is what they do. If the state of New Jersey electric utility is a unionized district , then there are jurisdictions that are to be observed.
The utility companies is who should take all of the criticism and the heat. They perform almost no line maintenance, switch yard or substation maintenance anymore. It has gotten rediculous and dangerous, and it's all in the name of business profit for the top of the organization. I think it is amazing how the general public are being forced into installing home power back up generators now that the grid has become so unreliable. This is an outrage. And the public still has to pay them even when they are without power. What a scam!
2) You have the same jurisdictions issue in other lines of work, that occur during crisis situations. Look at law enforcement, they have their city boundaries. Look at all of the battles between ambulance companies. Fire departments, and the list goes on and on.
Storm damage repair is part of what power lineman do. It's nothing personal, it's all business.
Just curious Hershey, doesn't it ever upset you when you get underbid on a big job by a company or contractor is using illegal, or work visa Mexicans? I hope you make a good living but unfortunately there are some out there who think you and your employees are overpaid and they are fighting to take away your work.......And the part that really sucks is that some of the politicians that you are paying tax dollars to support, are helping them.
hershey
PR Elite
Georgie.....Ask the natives here how they feel, they got the shaft. There are plenty of people here in the same boat as you describe in China! And Vietnams cost of living is now less than China because it is developing faster than VIetnam. The more people that move from living like they have for centuries and start making money then wanting more material things the more the cost of living goes up. My step mother is a former Vietnamese citizen of 40 years. She knows what it is like. The cost of living there is so cheap you wouldnt believe it. You can stay in the best hotel rivaling anything we have here for $5 us a night and be treated like a king. NQ1965 ... this goes for you too. It has NOTHING TO DO with how much money they make or the benefits they have! Economics 101 here ...... It has to do with the COST OF LIVING! In vietnam a electrical engineer lets say makes 35K US a year, that isnt squat by our standards but the cost of living is so cheap he lives in a mansion and has 20 servants.
The point is until the currency of some of these growing nations has a value close to ours, the percentage of population has jobs like ours and has the desire to spend money like we do the cost of living will remain lower than ours and therefore they can do the same job for less money.
Japan is a perfect example that everyone should be able to see. I clearly remember 30 years ago every one bitched about how cheap everything from Japan was, how the japanese werent paid enough and it was a poor country..... When is the last time you heard that? You dont anymore because the country became wealthy and the cost of living there is much higher now. The Japanese Yen is close in value to ours.
THe same thing will happen in other countries some day...
NQ1965....The New Jersey utilities may be unionized but ultimately the power company has the choice of who works on the lines. And you are right, they dont have as many of their own crews anymore. JW Didado in Akron has a massive line crew now. They are a union shop. They have crews out there right now. So let me ask you this...... I have a friend that works for them, he is a residential electrician. He got sent out with the line crews to do storm repair. He has NO CLUE how to work high voltage. So who would you rather have working on 24K volts? A non union qualified and trained lines man or a NON qualified residential union member? Who is going to do a better job more efficiently? Who is less likely to get injured on the job?
Ultimately yes making money is the goal for the power co. But in a time of crisis linesmen from around the country go to the troubled area and do the repairs so customers can have power. Let me get this straight, you are defending the unions so they can take LONGER and make more money for themselves and at the same time leaving PEOPLE with out power and heat just so the non union workers cant take some of their money? What a joke. Tell me that isnt what you are thinking.....
The last time I knew the police do cross lines to help as do fire departments! You hear all the time about how many fire departments it took to fight large fires! In a time of crisis I have never seen boundries set like this before.
And are you seriously comparing my men to illegal aliens? Of course I get out bid, on a regular basis actually! But comparing it to employers who do it illegally? So you are saying in fact I am no different than that type of employer when I bid against union shops?
Wow.....
MX955...... Working saturday for the union? Nice! thats probably double time....hell yeah I will be a democrat and spend your money if your offerring! You can buy my dinner to on the way home! Funny thing is I have experienced more crap form the union mentality on here than I everr have on job sites!
The point is until the currency of some of these growing nations has a value close to ours, the percentage of population has jobs like ours and has the desire to spend money like we do the cost of living will remain lower than ours and therefore they can do the same job for less money.
Japan is a perfect example that everyone should be able to see. I clearly remember 30 years ago every one bitched about how cheap everything from Japan was, how the japanese werent paid enough and it was a poor country..... When is the last time you heard that? You dont anymore because the country became wealthy and the cost of living there is much higher now. The Japanese Yen is close in value to ours.
THe same thing will happen in other countries some day...
NQ1965....The New Jersey utilities may be unionized but ultimately the power company has the choice of who works on the lines. And you are right, they dont have as many of their own crews anymore. JW Didado in Akron has a massive line crew now. They are a union shop. They have crews out there right now. So let me ask you this...... I have a friend that works for them, he is a residential electrician. He got sent out with the line crews to do storm repair. He has NO CLUE how to work high voltage. So who would you rather have working on 24K volts? A non union qualified and trained lines man or a NON qualified residential union member? Who is going to do a better job more efficiently? Who is less likely to get injured on the job?
Ultimately yes making money is the goal for the power co. But in a time of crisis linesmen from around the country go to the troubled area and do the repairs so customers can have power. Let me get this straight, you are defending the unions so they can take LONGER and make more money for themselves and at the same time leaving PEOPLE with out power and heat just so the non union workers cant take some of their money? What a joke. Tell me that isnt what you are thinking.....
The last time I knew the police do cross lines to help as do fire departments! You hear all the time about how many fire departments it took to fight large fires! In a time of crisis I have never seen boundries set like this before.
And are you seriously comparing my men to illegal aliens? Of course I get out bid, on a regular basis actually! But comparing it to employers who do it illegally? So you are saying in fact I am no different than that type of employer when I bid against union shops?
Wow.....
MX955...... Working saturday for the union? Nice! thats probably double time....hell yeah I will be a democrat and spend your money if your offerring! You can buy my dinner to on the way home! Funny thing is I have experienced more crap form the union mentality on here than I everr have on job sites!
Ahhh... That's want we want to see. Brothers in moto harmony, even in the non-moto section.
Just don't try to organize some of us into the brotherhood of motoriders then share our dues with lefty causes and all will remain cool...
NQ1965
PR Elite
Not sure if you've noticed or not but nowadays electrical engineers are some of the most abused trades people out there. Companies want them to work for nothing. And usually they have nobody to protest or fight for them against greedy bad employers. Not all, but many.
On the residential wireman, If he can pull cable and assist in pole work at the ground level, then he's still good help. They are considered book 3 workers (non classification). No harm in that. Theyre not likely to let him get into any hot stuff. And again, it's not personal.....Its all business to them. The lineman are in it for the money. And I also don't necesarily agree with banning the non union folk from helping. That isn't good union relations in my book. As long as everybody in the local is getting an opportunity to work.
And no, I'm not comparing you or your men to un-qualified illegal immigrants.
But the fact is "You" are bidding against contractors that are using this type of help, are you not? I have seen this first hand, and so have you. And it's not right. Those workers are not as good, qualified or as experienced as your crew, and yet they are driving down the wages for the craft work services that you provide.
If being non-union paid as well, had as good of benifits, offered collective bargaining and some job security, I would be non-union.
MX955
PitRacer Pro
Brother Hershey...I can pick you up in my Union Made Chevy van,I will make sure and wear my Union jacket & t-shirt! Just so you won't feel left out I will bring a extra shirt for you to wear and also I make sure I put a Union Proud bumper sticker on your Union made Chevy truck!
hershey
PR Elite
Not sure if you've noticed or not but nowadays electrical engineers are some of the most abused trades people out there. Companies want them to work for nothing. And usually they have nobody to protest or fight for them against greedy bad employers. Not all, but many.
On the residential wireman, If he can pull cable and assist in pole work at the ground level, then he's still good help. They are considered book 3 workers (non classification). No harm in that. Theyre not likely to let him get into any hot stuff. And again, it's not personal.....Its all business to them. The lineman are in it for the money. And I also don't necesarily agree with banning the non union folk from helping. That isn't good union relations in my book. As long as everybody in the local is getting an opportunity to work.
And no, I'm not comparing you or your men to un-qualified illegal immigrants.
But the fact is "You" are bidding against contractors that are using this type of help, are you not? I have seen this first hand, and so have you. And it's not right. Those workers are not as good, qualified or as experienced as your crew, and yet they are driving down the wages for the craft work services that you provide.
If being non-union paid as well, had as good of benifits, offered collective bargaining and some job security, I would be non-union.
I cant say that I have ever bid against a company using illegal immigrants for help. I have never even seen them on a large job site doing hvac, plumbing or electric. Now laborers , drywall and masonry I have....
Dont get me wrong here, unions are a fabulous thing for the workers but as much as you want to say the immigrants have driven down the price for the skilled trades the unions have driven it up 2 fold! For american jobs and for the national deficit ( by having to pay prevailing wages on gov funded jobs ) the unions have out lived their intended purpose.
And just for the record, in 12 years of business I had a one week layoff 8 years ago for each of my men and then when the economy tanked the other year I had rotating weeks off for a couple months. 3 of my friends in the akron local have gotten laid off almost every year they have been in. Job security..... My wages for the residential men are really damn close to union wages and they have 2 weeks paid vacation the akron local doesnt offer. They pay half of health ins and I pay half .... they have no retirement from me but I normally give a $600 cash xmas bonus. On top of that they dont pay union dues ......
Are your sure you would want a simple minded non union prick in your van ? After all if one of your " brothers" saw me in your van they might vandalize it.......