Pro Circuit Kawasaki's bike issues??

[hershey]

your correct. The total time for the day on one engine is just about 1 hour of run time, give or take a few mins. for warm up.

Most likely their problem is the same as most every other ghost problem, electrical. The connections and pin fit are extremely critical. When you have computers relying on millivolts of change through one sensor to update the current map in milliseconds the slightest resistance change through a connector can wreak havoc on map selection.

That translates to: Just washed the bike, did pre-race prep., left a little water in the coolant temp. sensor connector, the resistance went up, the ECU thinks the engine is over heating, changes maps to limp home mode by retarding the timing and fuel curve.

Obviously just a guess, but that is how that kind of stuff can happen and with out a data storage device on board they will never know what really happened. I bet they will find a way to start recording all the data that the ECU sees on every ride.

Then why would they change a complete engine and not just clean the connectors/ replace components? I doubt it electrical. Even a bad main bearing can still let the bike run the way it did at Daytona. Cracked head, bad valve or guide, cracked piston....all these things a bike can on occasion still run the way we saw at Daytona.

Now the previous problem where the bike did that then regained power almost had to be an electrical or fuel issue IMO.

 

[adam63]

Then why would they change a complete engine and not just clean the connectors/ replace components?


The reason they change a complete unit... because they can! Then there is less of a doubt if they fixed the problem or not.


I doubt it electrical. Even a bad main bearing can still let the bike run the way it did at Daytona. Cracked head, bad valve or guide, cracked piston....all these things a bike can on occasion still run the way we saw at Daytona.

Now the previous problem where the bike did that then regained power almost had to be an electrical or fuel issue IMO.

I'm not ruling out a mechanical issue, but my money is on an electrical gremlin! Unless we are standing in the rig when the bike is being worked on we will never know what all they actually did.

If you had the money, time, and parts on hand, what would you do? Would you try to diagnose the problem when you have about 1 hour to diagnose it and fix it or would you change out all components that provide propulsion to the cycle and remove all doubt (within reason) that you solved the problem.

Think about it, changing out the engine and all electrical components before the main is just a drop in the bucket as far as how much money they put into the entire program. They carry two additional, new engines per motorcycle they roll out of that trailer, why not change it out?

 

[Scoob]

Then why would they change a complete engine and not just clean the connectors/ replace components? I doubt it electrical. Even a bad main bearing can still let the bike run the way it did at Daytona. Cracked head, bad valve or guide, cracked piston....all these things a bike can on occasion still run the way we saw at Daytona.

Now the previous problem where the bike did that then regained power almost had to be an electrical or fuel issue IMO.

True. Can anyone that was there vouch that the bike was knocking, etc.?

 

[hershey]

I'm not ruling out a mechanical issue, but my money is on an electrical gremlin! Unless we are standing in the rig when the bike is being worked on we will never know what all they actually did.

If you had the money, time, and parts on hand, what would you do? Would you try to diagnose the problem when you have about 1 hour to diagnose it and fix it or would you change out all components that provide propulsion to the cycle and remove all doubt (within reason) that you solved the problem.

Think about it, changing out the engine and all electrical components before the main is just a drop in the bucket as far as how much money they put into the entire program. They carry two additional, new engines per motorcycle they roll out of that trailer, why not change it out?

But it would be much faster to change a few electrical components than the entire motor.....

 

[GeorgiePorgie]

Sure Hershey. But the thing is they probably said swap new everything because they can turn wrenches faster than they can diagnose a mech vs elec problem. Doubt the team will piss around and rule out variables when they know they have a complete race-spec working setup ready to go in the trailer.

 

[John250]

That bike was running perfect, or it seemed.......then AC slowed down.

 

[Scoob]

That bike was running perfect, or it seemed.......then AC slowed down.

Seemed to get to the pits OK... ???

 

[sturd]

Most likely their problem is the same as most every other ghost problem, electrical. The connections and pin fit are extremely critical. When you have computers relying on millivolts of change through one sensor to update the current map in milliseconds the slightest resistance change through a connector can wreak havoc on map selection.

That translates to: Just washed the bike, did pre-race prep., left a little water in the coolant temp. sensor connector, the resistance went up, the ECU thinks the engine is over heating, changes maps to limp home mode by retarding the timing and fuel curve.

I've wondered about this before as dirt bikes have higher environmental requirements regarding connection
reliability than anything I can think of - humidity, contaminants, and vibration to name a few. Why don't they
run CAN bus or at least 4-10mA loops so those tiny voltages go away?

 

[loneranger171]

Sure Hershey. But the thing is they probably said swap new everything because they can turn wrenches faster than they can diagnose a mech vs elec problem. Doubt the team will piss around and rule out variables when they know they have a complete race-spec working setup ready to go in the trailer.

Better safe than sorry... Probably even changed ac's under-roos to I bet

 

[hershey]

Probably even changed ac's under-roos to I bet

Thats funny!

 

[adam63]

I've wondered about this before as dirt bikes have higher environmental requirements regarding connection
reliability than anything I can think of - humidity, contaminants, and vibration to name a few. Why don't they
run CAN bus or at least 4-10mA loops so those tiny voltages go away?

Makes little sense to me also. The only reason I can come up with is cost. Surely they are smart enough to know the connectors they are using are substandard even for cars. Adding the connectors, sensors, and harness that are worthy of the abuse the average mx bike goes through would add some cash to the MSRP.

 

[hershey]

Substandard? I can honestly say I have never had an issue with a connector ever. Never.

What percentage of bikes sold have had issues with connectors? I know of a couple of KXF450's that had harness issues, one was a wire pinched at the steering head. Not sure the exact problem with the second but I dont think it was a harness issue and they replaced the entire harness.

How many off road bikes are sold world wide? A few hundred thousand? Im sure they have less than 1% of them with issues. I wouldnt call that substandard equipment.

 

[Scoob]

Makes little sense to me also. The only reason I can come up with is cost. Surely they are smart enough to know the connectors they are using are substandard even for cars. Adding the connectors, sensors, and harness that are worthy of the abuse the average mx bike goes through would add some cash to the MSRP.

Not thinking cost is the issue with the PC bikes....

Substandard? I can honestly say I have never had an issue with a connector ever. Never.

What percentage of bikes sold have had issues with connectors? I know of a couple of KXF450's that had harness issues, one was a wire pinched at the steering head. Not sure the exact problem with the second but I dont think it was a harness issue and they replaced the entire harness.

How many off road bikes are sold world wide? A few hundred thousand? Im sure they have less than 15 of them with issues. I wouldnt call that substandard equipment.

I agree. MX bikes are the most durable motor vehicles out there. Read that in a moto mag at some point a few years back. Just think of the things they put up with and once upright again from a typical get off, it fires up and all is well. That's aside of the terrain and/or weather we put them through. No need to put gold on it if silver will do just fine in 99.99% of the cases... Ever heard of overkill?

 

[adam63]

Not thinking cost is the issue with the PC bikes....


I agree. MX bikes are the most durable motor vehicles out there. Read that in a moto mag at some point a few years back. Just think of the things they put up with and once upright again from a typical get off, it fires up and all is well. That's aside of the terrain and/or weather we put them through. No need to put gold on it if silver will do just fine in 99.99% of the cases... Ever heard of overkill?

I agree cost is not the issue with PC but the manufacture, I think it is.

I guess I keep forgetting I am in the small percentage of riders that are extremely abusive on bikes and in a time in my life when I can't spend every dime I want to on bikes. If I could, I would put the harness and sensors on a time interval replacement list just like fork oil, shock oil, main bearings, and on and on and on...

Any how, see pic below. This is just one mod to one of the sensors I make at the first rebuild interval. It just so happens that most all Factory and Factory supported Kawi's use the same mod. It's only purpose is for longevity of the connector. has nothing to do with adding gold or silver but rather the insulation from the environment it works in.


Have you guys spent much time comparing the connectors and harnesses from other disciplines? If you get a chance take a look at a modern day earth mover and the connectors they use. Much more suited for us flying through the air without a parachute I mite add. Basically I think the manufactures went as cheap as they could and still make it work... most of the time! I don't like being part of that 1% of the time (as you say) when it doesn't work. My guess, PC doesn't either.

 

[sturd]

Substandard? I can honestly say I have never had an issue with a connector ever. Never.

1. I have. Fairly often.

2. I wasn't suggesting changing connectors. I was suggesting changing how the sensors
are communicating so that the connectors and other factors don't matter anymore. With
4-20mA loops, the voltage drop (which can be significant for a map sensor) because of a
iffy connector or contamination on the connection goes away. That's why in high reliability
applications, 4-10mA is all that is used. The cost is zero, except for some engineering the
first time.

Similarly, CAN bus makes the communications digital, which the ECU already is, negating issues
with sensor voltages being funky because of connection issues.


C. If the pro-circuit guys can predict impending engine explosion, that's impressive.
I doubt that they can. Sure they can see detonation but they aren't going to wait
to turn back the timing or change the fuel map, that will happen next cycle. On the order
of 12 msec (5000 RPM). More likely would be something they can predict.
It's about to run out of gas is one. MotoGP bikes dial back power if that is a possibility.
Pro-Circuit may be experimenting with it though if that's true, they haven't figured out
how to dial it back just a little, earlier.

 

[GeorgiePorgie]

I'd be just thrilled if my bike retarded its performance to save fuel on the face of a monster triple or double that I have timed perfectly every previous lap. They better have an auto-arsewiper installed in my mx pants too.

 

[Scoob]

I'd be just thrilled if my bike retarded its performance to save fuel on the face of a monster triple or double that I have timed perfectly every previous lap. They better have an auto-arsewiper installed in my mx pants too.

Ha!

One thing that would be nice is that sensor cutting the power if it's getting ready to blow... Could've used that on my last thumper... Sure, it gave me a noise, but...

 

[sturd]

I'd be just thrilled if my bike retarded its performance to save fuel on the face of a monster triple or double that I have timed perfectly every previous lap.

That would be bad.

MotoGP bikes know where they are on the track so can dial back as programmed.
Motocrosser could do the same, only dial back on the long straight and only a little
and do it early, when it becomes probable that fuel is low.

I can't believe Pro Circuit is spending the kind of money required to do that sort
of stuff.

I can't think of anything that they might monitor to decide that the bike is going to
blow up so they should go into limp home mode.

 

[ck1racerx]

This is a really bad commercial for PC. If the bikes just blow up, then it is easy (ier) to explain then the mystery cutting out. Since no real explanation has been given, I would assume all of you that have had work done by PC should be experiencing a level ten butt pucker on the face of EVERY jump... "Will it do it now?"
Not the kind of thing I want going through my mind during a moto...
PR nightmare for PC,
Just let it grenade and then blame it on the oil... Works for Buell. Hell, they us it in a commercial for amsoil.
Just pass the buck, its the new American way.