Can MX be made safer?

ck1racerx said:
They did it at Kenworthy for years... Plant wheat in the fall over the entire track. Plant life stabilizes the soil against erosion. Then in the spring, till in under and the straw works as a compost which retains moisture and aerates the dirt which help prevent compaction.
Then all you have to do is till it up and water it deep before an event and BAM, Loamy brownies for everyone to enjoy.
No need for sand, sawdust, wood chips or cow poop.
I will say it... I hate tabletops. They are the tofu of the mx track. No flavor and boring as hell by themselves. Put a jump in front of one and suddenly they are part of a double (Or triple according to Emig during supercross) Still have not figured that one out. "Wow, I really nailed that tabletop and I made up huge time" said NO ONE, EVER.
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That's erosion control, sediment is after erosion occurs. Unless its grass all the time between rides, you will have erosion. However your right, controlling erosion over the winter is a good thing. Winter wheat needs to be before November more like the week before Halloween, there in lies our problem. So do we cancel three weeks of practice to plant wheat?
 
BriarcliffMx said:
I used to build stuff and think is anyone going to jump this? And sure enough they did. Now I build stuff and think " what could happen here". And after this past weekend, I'm thinking how could I build it in such a way that it won't rain anvils and pitchforks if blue moon comes out. Seriously considering tables across the board, but can't you crash on tables too? I did on of my third degree separated ac joints on a little table, and the other getting crossed up out of a corner. Both were too fast and landed wrong.

Glad to see you kept riding after that crash. Still in the top three worst days in BC history.
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Jeremy I want to make sure I say, I never blamed you for that day. Yeah it made me scared to go there for a while, and yeah I still have a slight fear. But with what happened that happens as well. I've seen video of how the track looks and I need to get there. It's looking great! I don't blame you for that day. I'm sure it was something I did dumb, I just wish I could remember....
 
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BriarcliffMx said:
That's erosion control, sediment is after erosion occurs. Unless its grass all the time between rides, you will have erosion. However your right, controlling erosion over the winter is a good thing. Winter wheat needs to be before November more like the week before Halloween, there in lies our problem. So do we cancel three weeks of practice to plant wheat?
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How bout rolling the track before winter, I know a guy. I thought you were taking some well deserved time off! Stop thinking about your crappy track for a minute. My 3 cents is this. Bikes/quads are bigger, faster, easier to launch. Some tracks have adapted to this and made the jumps bigger. When you go down, you go down hard. I do not see how one can build a track to suit the little guys, C fellers, old dogs, fast girls and pros. Overall it's the tricky jumps that get the kids and less experienced hurt and the speed gets the biggins hurt. The bikes are not gonna get slower, tracks need to be made slower. Kids and beginners are going to try and huck a jump even if they are not ready. So the jumps need to be tamed. Or, don't care. Or send mini parents on the track first to huck said jumps. Or, put governors on machines. No real winners here. Hell my kid broke his arm on the kids track and it was a table top. PWs have no rebound adjustment evidently. We as a whole just need to decide what amount of injury hurts the sport. I myself have never been to what I thought was a dangerous track or a track that was dangerous due to conditions. Every track has an obstacle that seems to cause the most crashes. Racers need to see this and take note or they are the next one. I think I know why I love the roller thing so much. It's because I also roll all jumps to, they are both a safe way to go. That's why I roll!
 
For the most part i just get on here and browse the forum, and actually, I've never ever posted a thing here, so my opinion is truly a fresh one here.

However, I'd like to share my opinion on this subject as a moto parent with a youngster who races. My son made it to Regionals this year at Redbud and he was sweating it pretty badly. He was totally scared that the track was gonna be off the hook and way too much for him, as he is really just a beginner yet and barely made it past the BC area qaulifier. When we got to Redbud, i was shocked to see that in the layout they used for the LLQ only had 6 jumps total….thats right only 6 jumps total! Of those 6, only one was a double/triple/gap jump, Loracco's leap, every other jump was a table top, and this is Redbud, a class AAA facility all the way!

Boys, a 120/130ft table top is still a mighty big jump, and there were guys getting huge air all day long over it. Those who didn't want to fly high, didn't hit it. It didn't effect the racing in my opinion one bit. Not once did I see or hear anyone complain about the track or the lack of/ size of, or kind of jumps. In fact, just the opposite, the facility was excellent and the track, while rough as hell, was excellent too, all without huge gap jumps everywhere! Who would have thought?

I realize you can wad it up on a table top pretty easy too. My son has on several occasions gone to the er from a table top, but the bottom line is, I feel they are just plain safer, and accommodate all skill levels. Do we really need all those big gap jumps everywhere to still have fun and ride well?
 
Since you brought it up, lets use the leap as an example. As someone who has jumped it I can tell you the first time will scare the crap out of you. You can not see the landing and it has to be done completely off "feel". Its has been around for YEARS, long before 4 strokes, neck braces and go-pro's on everyone's helmet, and very few attempt it. Even fewer have gotten hurt on what, by all accounts should be considered one of, if that the most dangerous "obstacles" in the area if not the country. It has the evil three, High speed, Long distance and a non forgiving landing that's not a table top.
Now, why so few injuries? Could it be that the vast majority of riders look at it and say "no way in hell am I even tiring that". Yet the advanced riders (Some of them) can make the jump and if they do, it saves time and can make a difference.
If you have thrown your leg over a bike in the past 30 years, you have seen someone on TV or live jump the leap. Why have you not tried it??? If they filled in the "gaps" would you try it? Why? You know you cant make it...
I personally never really cared about big jumps. Like they say in golf, you drive for show and putt for dough. In moto, corners are where the dough is made.
Dad912- welcome, feel free to post more. It is good to get fresh feedback
 
The leap is not high speed, once you get through the whooped out corner and actually get to the clay, you might be in third. But it is massive. The face is incredible.
 
BriarcliffMx said:
I used to build stuff and think is anyone going to jump this? And sure enough they did. Now I build stuff and think " what could happen here". And after this past weekend, I'm thinking how could I build it in such a way that it won't rain anvils and pitchforks if blue moon comes out. Seriously considering tables across the board, but can't you crash on tables too? I did on of my third degree separated ac joints on a little table, and the other getting crossed up out of a corner. Both were too fast and landed wrong.

Glad to see you kept riding after that crash. Still in the top three worst days in BC history.
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NEMX made all their jumps tables. and then people complained, OH it's too easy, you have to put in some doubles! So they put in doubles and people would say...OH ITS TOO HARD! You must make them all Table tops!!!

And guess how the injury rate was when it was an all table top track? Much higher than when it was a regular double, triple, table induced track......
 
I started this thread by asking a reasonable question” Can MX be made safer” and appreciate the honest and constructive comments from many different perspectives. I think the over whelming answer to my original question is YES, MX can be made safer. Perhaps a better question is “Should MX be made safer”? Can anyone honestly consider a weekend when 50+ riders are injured on a single track, some with life threatening and life changing injuries a success? I don’t and can’t imagine any parent, grandparent or family member of these riders would, never mind Austin Mincey's family. The past few weeks highlight smaller local tracks that are largely unknown in the greater MX world who have an opportunity to get new and significant publicity/notoriety. It seems this opportunity drives track designers/builders to create significantly harder (and more dangerous) tracks.
 
978 riders over 18 classes X 5 lap practice + 5 lap moto X 3 motos = 19560 laps. 50 injured is 1 every .0025 laps
200 riders over 27 classes X 5 lap practice +5 lap moto X 2 motos = 3000 laps. 8 injuries is 1 every .0026 laps.

That may be slightly high, but its not that far off normal. Now, could that track be made saver? Think it only had one or two "gap" jumps and while I was not there, I heard most of the injuries came from high speed sections and sketchy faces on some jumps.
The problem is its just not that easy to say MX can be made safer. Yes you can fix the faces but what do you do about straights with breaking bumps? Heck, Johnny250 slammed hard on a flat, smooth straight with a small bend to it.

Make a track with all tables and low speeds and NO ONE shows up. Its a catch 22
 
Every sport can be made safer. Can freestyle motocross be made safer? Downhill mountain biking? UFC?
Motocross racing is a dangerous and badass sport. If it was tame and safe, I'm not sure if I or many people with a similar mindset would love it so much(or atleast that particular track that evolves this new way of thinking).

Sure I can have fun riding anywhere, but to say we as a whole need to rally together and slow all these tracks down because the bikes go too fast just sounds silly. You have the option to not race, you have the option to race tame tracks, you have the option to race gnarly tracks, and you have the option to find the quickest way through a section you aren't comfortable jumping.

I love all tracks whether they're take or gnarly, and I love the option to choose the type of practice and racing I'd like to do every weekend. I accept the risk everytime I get on the bike.
 
To think our sport can be safer by altering jumps and or removing them is ridiculous. It all comes down to, what many others have said before, the riders skill level and their comfort on the track/bike. Are table tops safer?, yes but you can get just as hurt on those as you can a gnarly triple. I think having jumps such as malverns table to single is a fun big jump, you can hit the table and scrub the single or hit the whole thing. Sometimes you just have to sack up and go for things. I know the first time I went to hit it I remember thinking "this is a mistake" but I came out unscathed. There's other track with big jumps such as 213's uphill triple, I hit it a lot on my 450 and 250 2 stroke, but since I've been on a 250f I haven't hit it except one time (5th gear on my stock 250f) it just felt too dangerous for my so I haven't launched it since. When you go out to a track you know your skill level, don't push it too much.
 
Wasn't this a national event not a local race?! These guys are out there to ride the biggest, fastest & best tracks in the nation. I actually heard the people say the jumps weren't big enough! People got hurt because the track was fast. Some hurt themselves attempting the back section as a triple. Some riders were wrecks of normal racing, Holeshot tangles, crossing lines &landing on each other. Riders should ride to their ability. I think everyone all & all really like the effort BC put into the place. All the extras activities that many nationals don't do plus attendance was high the pros felt like they actually rode for a crowd. I'm sure if the series comes back next year they'll be less accidents. I mean Gatorback claimed 3 lives before it went off the series.
 
Knocking on wood, we haven't lost a rider yet, and I will do whatever it takes to avoid that. Already have the other design ready, I'm not sure when to put it in place. We should have it ready for the school. Should be slower in the key areas that are needed.
 
I think I know why I love the roller thing so much. It's because I also roll all jumps to, they are both a safe way to go. That's why I roll!
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Ask my old man about rollers. . .oh yea real safe!

2 surgeries and a tibial nail later.....

And still he never once blamed the track, obstacle or the bike. "Man I should of pulled off that last lap I was getting a little tired."


And Nobody wants to lose a rider. And if that happens thats why we sign waivers and we understand the risk. There's nothing at briarcliff that would readily kill anyone, besides a dozer parked I the middle of the track (which doesn't happen ) Guns don't kill people. People kill people. Tracks/bikes don't kill people....people kill people.
 
Never been to a Quad National so I have to ask what kind and how many injuries are normal? Is there a lot of crashing at High Point or Red Bud?
 
Dude quad riders are nuts. How can i describe the first turn at pine lake in ashtabula....oh, i know....It's like 43 Danica Patricks cartwheeling convertibles....with no seat belts. I don't know how they survive.
 
I've been reading this thread-- still some interesting reading regarding how people view the sport and its' hazards.

What would be a great tool for guageing and matching what skill level is required to ride at a given track, why not have a rating system for tracks? Riders are classified as A,B, and C--- right? Why not classify the tracks as well? As in.... "Smith Rd. Raceway is a C friendly track". "OIR has some B level jumps". "Briarcliff is recommended for A/B riders".

Also-- if you really want to do it right, then don't let C, Vet, Women, Jr Mini's jump the bigger obstacles at the gnarlier tracks. If ya want to sandbag in C class, you can't do the bigger stuff. That would help out all the classes by taking the A/B riders out of C class, and help the entries in the A/B classes. Also-- it would make Vets like me want to buy a bike and race again possibly!! --L*64
 
*Stating opinions, to be taken as constructive critisizm, not insults/complains.* as an A rider, i think both Briarcliff and Malvern are very fast, too fast in my opinion. Especially for their soil, loamy in areas, hard backed underneath. I loved Briarcliff back in like 2009-2010 when it had all the off-cambers and tight, challenging sections, not the mach 5 straights. If those tracks were sandy like RedBud, the long straights would be fine. I think a more technical track is more safe.

And to the guy who said "pro's have training facility's for big tracks to ride" (not exact quote, i cant remember it word for word, lol) but those facility's cost anywhere from $1000 -$2500 a month to stay at. I know I sure can't afford that! Like I said, i'd like to see some local tracks slow the layout down a little bit, and injuries will be reduced. (Like i said before, my opinion. And you know what they say about those!)
 
Woods&Water said:
*Stating opinions, to be taken as constructive critisizm, not insults/complains.* as an A rider, i think both Briarcliff and Malvern are very fast, too fast in my opinion. Especially for their soil, loamy in areas, hard backed underneath. I loved Briarcliff back in like 2009-2010 when it had all the off-cambers and tight, challenging sections, not the mach 5 straights. If those tracks were sandy like RedBud, the long straights would be fine. I think a more technical track is more safe.

And to the guy who said "pro's have training facility's for big tracks to ride" (not exact quote, i cant remember it word for word, lol) but those facility's cost anywhere from $1000 -$2500 a month to stay at. I know I sure can't afford that! Like I said, i'd like to see some local tracks slow the layout down a little bit, and injuries will be reduced. (Like i said before, my opinion. And you know what they say about those!)
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Exactly my point. Technical doesnt mean huge jumps!
 
I dunno, I think it still comes back to the rider in the end. Make the rider safer and you get the biggest bang for the buck.

Unless the track has surprise spring boards, pop-up walls, trees that grap the throttle, brake, clutch, or kill button, how could you actually "blame" a track? Could it be made "safer"? Do we want it to be made "safer"? You bet!, but at the expense of what? Fun? Then why do it? I know that sounds ridiculous as it did to me while I typed it, but why would we take the risks we do if it wasn't some sort of fun? I do not take near the risks I used to due to my "fun" ending in pain. Tracks didn't change. I did.

Not saying we do not try to make things safer (the bike, the tracks, the equipment, etc.) as that is a given or at least should be. Any track owner that just shrugs he shoulders when a rider gets hurt on his track should be ashamed, however if you make a "100 % safe track" that is no fun or is not challenging to ride on while another track is fun and/or challenging for most (never going to satisfy everyone), well, who's going to ride it? Not many. The safe track shuts down eventually due to not enough riders...

Sure, we all push, and/or have pushed the limit a time or two, some too many in some peeps eyes, but 'tis the dealio. I read it reference to, but I got hurt so many more times on my 450. I feel this was due in part to the fact I could ride it faster without so much effort as my 250 smoker, hence when I hit the ground, it tended to mess more stuff up. I don't blame the bike though. I blame yours truely.

A track is what it is. If I saw tracks making SX triple style gaps/jumps, rythm sections (Steel City had a section that hurt the average rider), etc. that would be excessive for the average rider I think and THEY should decide not to ride it or roll those sections. I've failed to do that on occasion, hit the jump a couple times in fear and it caught up with me eventually if I did not stop it and quit trying to compensate for my lack of corner speed with other methods to huck that damn jump (Dayton SX ametuer day broken femur). Heck, even for some of the best, Blake Bagget for example the last couple of years... It happens. It's dangerous. Treat it that way

It sucks when someone gets hurt. Quit trying to blame someone else other than yourself though... I think most who get injured know where the blame lies.

And you tracks, quit making the tracks so damn fun that we get hurt doing it. Just make a NASCAR oval. No one has ever gotten hurt in NASCAR, right??...

Where's my bubble wrap? I'm done. See you at some unsafe track near you...maybe. Grassy backyard with trees, stumps, flint, roots, rocks, etc. may be safer for me to ride on...
 
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