Old bike guys.....A few Questions

BriarcliffMx

BriarcliffMx

PR Founding Father
Ok. Follow me here, Im young, I do not have a good grasp in some of the old bike lingo, but I would like to understand it better.

I am considering a Vet National type weekend, with some vintage type racing on a revamped c track with starting gate installed. All modern classes on the big track, old bike stuff on the C track.

#1. What are the major class offerings that I should consider, IF, I do decide to go down this road?

My thoughts are bomber>10 years and older, which really should be on the big track, maybe bomber should be pre-1998 (pre modern fourstroke). Then> post-vintage, vintage, and 1980's strokes. I'm looking to maximize entries, like any smart promoter, because I want the best chances for an event like this to succeed.

#2. Do my thoughts in #1 make sense?

#3. Do you think we can get 50-75 entries for old bikes alone? Be honest please.

#4. thank you
 
On any given weekend you get at least 5-10 bikes that I see qualifying for a pre-1998 bomber class. Now add in the locals that have older machines (and race them...ahem...Shafer ;) )...let's say 15. You're almost half way there. Now if it's a weekend and you are doing the old stuff on a separate day, then you should grab a few more local guys that ride both.

If promoted right, without any conflicts and ample time for the riders to schedule, I think you can do it.

I would follow a modified AMA class structure and get Alex on board.

I'm sure some of the others will chime in too...NQ, Pit, Babs, KO, Don P, Stanford, DMX, etc.
 
I ride modern and vintage. We like the old two day format of vintage Saturday and Post vintage sunday. Even if it is practice one day and race the next it makes a two day riding deal out of it. Log road had 100 entries this past weekend for one day race. We would definitely come down and bring the modern bikes too. If you add in a practice day with a special prepped vintage track(c-track) then you may get more practice and race the next day. It is hard to run 2-3 vintage classes and then start up the modern bike for a race all in one day.
Anyway the tracks we ride on are longer than the C track at the cliff you would need to lengthen it out. With no conflicts of Ahrma and Ama series you should get a good draw.
 
You may want to also keep in mind that most vintage racers are used to paying $50 per class for same day sign ups. This obviously increases the profit compared to an average sign up fee of $25 for modern bike races. If you decide to charge the vintage racers the same as modern you could market that fact and may get an increased turn out just based on that fact alone.
 
Keep in mind, my main focus is an event like vet fest at red bud, but with vintage and post vintage added in on a revamped C track. This wouldn't be a stand alone vintage race.
 
I think your classes are a good start. Are you going to run these at the same time as the modern stuff, that is
two tracks going at once? Probably not a good idea unless you have a huge crew but would increase the number
of classes you could consider.

If you have the time, consider an age class or two. +50 is usually the biggest at the AHRMA and AMA
vintage races. Get those guys out. They might not come if they have to race 20 year olds on '73
equipment.

50 people? Big maybe. You'd need to promote different places than you're used to I'd guess. A few
years ago Singler got near 20 people for a run-what-ya-brung, only one, vintage class but the locals promoted within
their own ranks which really helped. Having more classes obviously helps but nobody wants 30 classes in
a day.
 
There is definitely a potentially good market for vintage/ vet mx in Ohio. Many other regions or states have local or regional vintage race series. Ohio has a couple of AMA Vintage races and a few poorly attended AHRMA races. You might want to talk to Drew Wolfe at Action Sports, I have talked to him about it and he may be interested in being part of a small series of Vintage races. Could be 3 or 4 tracks through out Ohio for the "BUCKEYE VINTAGE CHAMPIONSHIP". The C track is fun and good for practice ( except with RAZORS present) but would be marginal for a Vintage race. I have been to 5 AMA vintage races this year and the best tracks were big tracks like the A track at Briarcliff, with equal track prep but they bypass the big jumps, and/or reshape them. Don't forget there would be guys on 1974 twin shock bikes also.

I would take time to build momentum but I am confident that an OHIO Vintage series would attract 75+.
 
I thought it might help to send over the AMA class structure to answer question #1. This was from 2013 and this year they dropped the pre 2003 but kept the non current has more classes to include 250 and age classes - that one is gaining momentum this year for sure. Most of us spent some $$ building the best bikes for these as AMA and AHRMA are quite similar. I think changing up much might alienate some of the target audience. Not sure if I would be as crazy about it if I had to race my 83 CR250 against someone on a clapped out 88 CR. There is a pretty good gap between EV3 and non current so maybe a class for non inverted forks back to EV3 and call it EV4. You might need to call them something different but along these lines.

If you could somehow route around the big jumps and big whoops, it can be flat, we would be good on the large track. Agree the C would need to have some length but perhaps a straight over to the large track and run part of it? We're not real picky and we don't complain about long fast straights.. Drew normally just routes around his reasonable doubles for vintage and puts them back in for post and I would agree he would be someone to talk with. I also think promoting a race like this to modern novice, mini, and vet riders might draw big interest. You probably have had some show up, especially us old guys, that take a lap on the A track and decide it's too much to race or even ride on. Finally, if you want a few of us to come out with our bikes for a couple hours and tell you what would be realistic I'm in! There are a good bunch of riders in V, PV, and NC within a reasonable distance that I am sure would be as well. PS - make this happen!
 

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Just a question for the responders here... Has anyone been to a combined modern and vintage bike event that was well attended with decent numbers in both the new and old bike classes? The reason I ask is because I've only been to vintage events with some modern support classes and the support classes haven't been well attended.

A question to Briarcliff... Are we basically talking about a vet race with some vintage support classes? If that's the case perhaps a short and simple vintage class schedule structure would work best. I'd have reason to race MX at the Cliff but only on an old bike on the C track. And the C track would need some serious tweaking to make the event memorable.
 
Yes ko, we Are talking a modern vet race with vintage support. I figured thata longer revamped c rack would be a good for vintage, rather than the big track for vintage.
 
I got to thinking about that after I messaged. Maybe a 125, open class, and a 30+ for vintage, post vintage, NC. Open would work because most of the big bore guys race in age classes against 250's anyway stand alone open classes are normally a small gate. It would give you 9 classes where some would ride 2 or more. It would be good if it allowed for modern vet riders to do both somehow.
 
Well if this would be a 1 day event?

How many "A" track Vet class's do you think you are talking about?
I've never done a Vet race before but looking at Redbuds class offerings, looks like there are typically quite a few class's offered, probably some double gate drops I'm assuming.

VetFest Class List:
18+ A 18+ B/C 18+ Women*
25+ A 25+ B/C 25+ Novice*
30+ A 30+ B/C 30+ Novice*
35+ A 35+ B/C 35+ Novice*
40+ A 40+ B/C 40+ Novice*
45+ A 45+ B/C 45+ Novice*
50+ A 50+ B/C 55+
60+

A Bomber/Decade class could be run on both "A" and "C" tracks, but my guess is you may get more on the gate on "C" track. (Although I think it was Jeff Gibson that won one of his Briarcliff Battle races on a borrowed 2003 CR250 smoker.)

I've always thought that the "C" track had the potential to be a really popular race track if ever given the opportunity and the right track setup. We all know there are a lot of racers out there (vet and non-vet) that feel that the "A" track is just too much.

Actual "Vintage" bike racers (machines 1974 and older) seem to be very particular and picky about the tracks they're willing to race these bikes on. Hard to please them. ( and yes... I fall into this catagory and have had my moments o_O ).

Keeping it simple is probably sound thinking.

Now if there is to be 2 days of racing (as you stated, weekend event) this opens it up a lot, but again, a lot of thought, consideration and planning will be needed for maximum draw. I think all of the Vintage/PV racing events have been struggling with attendance. (for several years now) so this event needs to be "Special, Unique and Different".
 
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k01 said:
Has anyone been to a combined modern and vintage bike event that was well attended with decent numbers in both the new and old bike classes?
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I have attended many. And the answer is NO, not well attended in both classes in this current day and age of an overload of vintage racing events. And I guess if we are being honest here there's an overload of "vet" racing events too. Just not any in Ohio.

High Point has been running this exact event for 25+ years now. Used to be well attended in all classes, now it is dwindling off. They used to have about 6 classes for old bikes, now it's down to two (pre-95 and pre-85). Actually this event was my first ever "vintage" race, as I raced Rocket's Dads mid '70s Husky 250 one year there.

Scenic Highlands attempted to get this started in Ohio (ran about 4 years) and I think Mosher and myself were the only ones that raced both the old bike classes and modern classes. Old bike classes had about half a dozen.

Nobody has asked, so I guess I will -- is this a bikes only event or are there quads?
If yes to quads, sorry, but you might as well forget it. Vet bikes won't show up, at least not in enough numbers to make it worthwhile. High Point tried adding in Vet Quad classes one year and there was basically a complete revolt.

If you do it right, it could be great but it will take several years to get going. The first two years most people would somehow not know about it, because as you know some people don't know about anything unless someone tells it directly to their face.

Personally I think BC would be better off putting on an annual GP race. Tons of potential there and the GP race there last year was decently attended for a first race.
 
It would be a bike event, no atvs. Which I'm not really that fond of doing, but I'm looking to build events that could be on par with the Battle. I would say so far, it sounds like this has been tried and seems like it would be a rehashed attempt at something that seems to be fading.

I am seriously thinking about the GP again next year, I had fun racing it. I do think we need to add some BC elements to it, make it our style of GP. A one-off BC GP event.
 
I think it would be a good opportunity for the OMX to gain an additional foothold in the Ohio MX world. A 3 or 4 race series. With a minimum amount of work Malvern, Smith Road, Action, BC could transform there tracks once or twice a year to a Vintage/PV suitable track. Need to wait for AMA and AHRMA schedules and the fill the gaps with a BUCKEYE series. It would add to the OMX credibility and provide an a additional weekend revenue for track operators.
 
BriarcliffMx said:
I would say so far, it sounds like this has been tried and seems like it would be a rehashed attempt at something that seems to be fading
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Yes....but....also could be time to resurrect the idea.
What might actually be really cool, is to have a two day event -- Saturday the BC GP, Sunday the Vet/Vintage National. That way you have the events helping to grow each other and there would probably be a lot of racers that would do both.
 
Mike said:
I think it would be a good opportunity for the OMX to gain an additional foothold in the Ohio MX world. A 3 or 4 race series. With a minimum amount of work Malvern, Smith Road, Action, BC could transform there tracks once or twice a year to a Vintage/PV suitable track. Need to wait for AMA and AHRMA schedules and the fill the gaps with a BUCKEYE series. It would add to the OMX credibility and provide an a additional weekend revenue for track operators.
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I don't think the OMA is interested in another series along these lines. I think it needs to start with one race like the Battle first, then if it grows we consider the series or not.

I would say a two day event is probably a stretch. A lot of setup and tear down go into a GP course. I'm not sure if we want to get into that. Cool idea though.
 
Having never been to your facility I don't know if it would be possible but you might consider extending your C track into a grassy area to add a " grass track " feel . A big grassy sweeper , offcamber , "G"out , etc. are popular with most of the older , short travel bike crowd and all it takes is some ribbon and stakes to mark it out . I've ridden vintage tracks that had some decent sized table tops and " singles " too though .
 
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