Moto news for 2015?
- Thread starter ck1racerx
- Start date
Lotts24
PR Elite
mblair
PR Founding Father
I have some chaps and a cowboy hat and I can come up with a Suzuki yellow umbrella!
Scoob
PR Founding Father
I like the transponder idear and would think if it made sense, some would use it during practices. Not sure of all that cost, but would be nice to know lap times, etc. to know if you were getting faster, slower, etc. A lot of options otherwise to do this yourself. Definately a significant invetment for the track initially not to consider the cost of maintanence and ongoing costs though. How many riders would you need to break even? 20 a race? 15 a practice? 
ck1racerx
PR Addict
RFID system is the way to go. You can buy the super system for $3700. The best transponders are $6 each and can last for years. An organization like OMA or the old D-11 could buy one system and use it at each track week to week. Sell the transponders annually for $10 each. Less than 1000 riders pays for the system.
If you have 3 scores making $150 each per race (which is way cheap). You could reduce the number to one and save $300 per race. Multiply that by 16 events per year and that saves $4800 every year. Again, pays for itself.
Some, if not most of the local tracks have VERY good scorers. My mother was a scorer for nearly 20 years at Dirt Country, Kenwortless and several other tracks through the 80's and 90's so I am for sure not on a witch hunt. This would free up manpower and $ that the promoters are currently spending so they could possible hire more flaggers, medical staff and support personnel. So if you look at it from a financial and customer satisfaction stand point, it only makes sense.
If you have 3 scores making $150 each per race (which is way cheap). You could reduce the number to one and save $300 per race. Multiply that by 16 events per year and that saves $4800 every year. Again, pays for itself.
Some, if not most of the local tracks have VERY good scorers. My mother was a scorer for nearly 20 years at Dirt Country, Kenwortless and several other tracks through the 80's and 90's so I am for sure not on a witch hunt. This would free up manpower and $ that the promoters are currently spending so they could possible hire more flaggers, medical staff and support personnel. So if you look at it from a financial and customer satisfaction stand point, it only makes sense.
BriarcliffMx
PR Founding Father
I see issues with RFID, I'm not sold.
Vet261
PR Addict
Why fix something that's not broken? Sure transponder scoring is cool and all, but every local track I've been racing at has no issues with scoring. Why spend the money and increase costs to both tracks and racers for something that's not broken? I just don't see the need for it on the local level.
jrminiquad
PR Addict
You would always need a person doing manual back-up scoring regardless of what type of electronic system you use.
If you lost power during a race, have a spectator accidentally unplug the extension cord going to the computer (I've seen it happen), someone who is in the race walk up to the scoring station with their RF tag on their helmet during the race (I've seen it happen), etc.
The only issues I have seen with using RF tags mounted on helmets is that some helmet material is reflective and the tags won't always read correctly.
What kind of issues do you anticipate?
If you lost power during a race, have a spectator accidentally unplug the extension cord going to the computer (I've seen it happen), someone who is in the race walk up to the scoring station with their RF tag on their helmet during the race (I've seen it happen), etc.
The only issues I have seen with using RF tags mounted on helmets is that some helmet material is reflective and the tags won't always read correctly.
What kind of issues do you anticipate?
hershey
PR Elite
Really???? There are plenty of issues that have happened at races with manual scoring. Not generally a score persons fault. With the RFID or other transponders you dont have to worry about muddy plates, bad eyes and multiple duplicate numbers. Plus Id pay the extra just for the time sheets!
BriarcliffMx
PR Founding Father
For one I think it would be a hastle getting everyone to bring there helmet to sign up, then we have few that probably haven't cleaned their helmets. Each finishline is different at each track, so you would to come in early to hang the receiver boxes and test them so everything is working properly. The only person that actually goes to every track is Connie, so is she doing this. Moto Sponder told me that he couldn't guarantee the accuracy, or that it always worked 100%, that doesn't give me a warm fuzzy feeling. All the possible issues and headaches to what, save one person from scoring? I don't think the benefit outweighs the cost. I would trust the mylaps stuff better, it's a proven technology, but I don't feel that the racers would stomach the added cost.
jrminiquad
PR Addict
If you let the racers know up front to bring their helmets to sign-up it is not a hassle at all. Let them know ahead of time via Pitracer, in addition to a hand-out at the gate and PA announcements. WRMC does it for flat track, harescrambles and MX, and 95% bring their helmets with them to sign-up.
Keep a wet paper towel at sign-up to wipe muddy helmets. As far as accuracy, I would say 99%.
Now don't let me over simplify this. In addition to the start-up cost it would be a group effort to run this system every race. You would typically hang four scanners at the finish, and run cables to a computer. This is the same computer that you use to run sign-up, so there has to be a time period to finish sign-up order entry, come up with a race order, print the race order and gate pick sheets, shut down the system, take it to the finish line and hook up to the scanners. This same computer needs to print results of each moto quickly before the next moto starts, have someone run those sheets up to sign-up again.
I'm sure there is a way to run multiple computers but they all must connect to the same database, which means you have to have wireless available. The first races of the season will cause sign-up to be very slow, as you have to enter all of the riders' info into the database they first time they race. Subsequent races they will only need to scan their helmet at sign-up for their info to come up. If they had to get a new tag somewhere during the season it would need reassigned to their current database file.
Definitely not a one man job, but a small army of workers to pull this off each week.
Having a late sign-up after the race order and gate picks have already been assigned throws a real wrench in the works. And of course you will always have a couple racers who say that the transponder results are not correct. The person at sign-up or trophy counter only have a results sheet to go off. They then have to go back through the manual scoring back-up to verify, which in most cases, the transponders are correct (99% accurate).
Live scoring is possible, like they do at Loretta's, but you better have someone on staff with a computer science degree to figure all of that out. Pretty slick system but there is so much that goes on behind the scenes that most aren't aware of. I like it but I can definitely see the argument to stick with manual scoring. Quick and easy.
Keep a wet paper towel at sign-up to wipe muddy helmets. As far as accuracy, I would say 99%.
Now don't let me over simplify this. In addition to the start-up cost it would be a group effort to run this system every race. You would typically hang four scanners at the finish, and run cables to a computer. This is the same computer that you use to run sign-up, so there has to be a time period to finish sign-up order entry, come up with a race order, print the race order and gate pick sheets, shut down the system, take it to the finish line and hook up to the scanners. This same computer needs to print results of each moto quickly before the next moto starts, have someone run those sheets up to sign-up again.
I'm sure there is a way to run multiple computers but they all must connect to the same database, which means you have to have wireless available. The first races of the season will cause sign-up to be very slow, as you have to enter all of the riders' info into the database they first time they race. Subsequent races they will only need to scan their helmet at sign-up for their info to come up. If they had to get a new tag somewhere during the season it would need reassigned to their current database file.
Definitely not a one man job, but a small army of workers to pull this off each week.
Having a late sign-up after the race order and gate picks have already been assigned throws a real wrench in the works. And of course you will always have a couple racers who say that the transponder results are not correct. The person at sign-up or trophy counter only have a results sheet to go off. They then have to go back through the manual scoring back-up to verify, which in most cases, the transponders are correct (99% accurate).
Live scoring is possible, like they do at Loretta's, but you better have someone on staff with a computer science degree to figure all of that out. Pretty slick system but there is so much that goes on behind the scenes that most aren't aware of. I like it but I can definitely see the argument to stick with manual scoring. Quick and easy.
Vet261
PR Addict
Sure, over the course of racing for 30 years, yes I've seen my share of issues with manual scoring. What I meant was, that I don't see if happening every single week and as a constant problem that needs fixed.
Plus Hershey, if you have time sheets at local races you're just going to be getting pissed that you can't beat my lap times like at Muddy Creek!
hershey
PR Elite
Haha.....jack ass! The truth hurts sometimes....
BriarcliffMx
PR Founding Father
Well it sounds good in theory, but I'm not sure I want to be the guinea pig to try it on a 600+ entry event, or even 300+. And what advantage does the RFID system give us? Does it speed up the program? I don't think it does anything but add something our list of worries.
Will it stop the pit riding? If so, we are in!
Will it stop the pit riding? If so, we are in!
I think it could save money and maybe be a cost center besides. Somebody above detailed how it could
save a few bucks but they didn't account for the extra cost of a dedicated worker at sign up checking
helmets. Dirt on your helmet is a non-issue, it will read through it. The tag just has to stick and
if it doesn't, sorry buddy but just like having no (or unreadable) numbers, we didn't score you.
The GP at WR you just had to walk through the timing loop but it took somebody there to
verify read. I never heard of anybody not being read, I'm guessing it's better than 99% but
have no data. Are scorers anywhere close to that?
The cost center would be in selling timing but I don't know if the software can do that. Why WR
doesn't have a screen showing that, and sell me me lap times for a buck or something is baffling.
During the GP they can show me my placement but during a flat track, when I really want to know
really small differences in lap time that indicate the last change I made worked, they don't provide
squat. I'd pay a buck for a sheet with practice times. Every practice and every heat race. Count
me in for 4-5 bucks a race day to see if our changes are working or making us crazier than normal.
Having said all that, it needs to be a be a benefit to the riders for them to pay for it. Live timing
and scoring (a screen somewhere people can watch or a wifi feed they can watch) people might pay
more to have.
If you wanted to attract spectators, things lean further toward live timing and scoring but now
I'm just daydreaming.
save a few bucks but they didn't account for the extra cost of a dedicated worker at sign up checking
helmets. Dirt on your helmet is a non-issue, it will read through it. The tag just has to stick and
if it doesn't, sorry buddy but just like having no (or unreadable) numbers, we didn't score you.
The GP at WR you just had to walk through the timing loop but it took somebody there to
verify read. I never heard of anybody not being read, I'm guessing it's better than 99% but
have no data. Are scorers anywhere close to that?
The cost center would be in selling timing but I don't know if the software can do that. Why WR
doesn't have a screen showing that, and sell me me lap times for a buck or something is baffling.
During the GP they can show me my placement but during a flat track, when I really want to know
really small differences in lap time that indicate the last change I made worked, they don't provide
squat. I'd pay a buck for a sheet with practice times. Every practice and every heat race. Count
me in for 4-5 bucks a race day to see if our changes are working or making us crazier than normal.
Having said all that, it needs to be a be a benefit to the riders for them to pay for it. Live timing
and scoring (a screen somewhere people can watch or a wifi feed they can watch) people might pay
more to have.
If you wanted to attract spectators, things lean further toward live timing and scoring but now
I'm just daydreaming.
BriarcliffMx
PR Founding Father
Maybe I'm misunderstanding the process, but don't you need to either have an extra reader( finish line receiver box) to scan the helmets at sign up or take one down then put it back up after sign up? What about people that are late? You would almost have to buy the extra, or have a way to reattach them quickly.
I know what Connie is thinking......the transponder sticker gets taken care of before they get in the sign up building.
I know what Connie is thinking......the transponder sticker gets taken care of before they get in the sign up building.
jrminiquad
PR Addict
In theory, you could get by with only one reader. You would have to take it from sign-up where you are scanning helmets at sign-up, to the finish line to capture the tags for races. That would be too risky. You need more than one.
WRMC has one dedicated reader at sign-up and four readers being used at the finish line of whatever race is being run. They are moved for each type of race (MX, flat track, hare scramble). They are basically just a big grocery store scanner.
Again, late sign-ups or people wanting to change, add or back out of a class really screws things up after the race order has been set up in the computer. You need to close sign-up at least a half hour before the first race starts.
WRMC did set up a monitor with live scoring for the 2-man/4-hour race. It would be hard for a person who only uses the system a few times a year be able to use it to it's full capability like everyone is suggesting, but the possibilities could include:
- online sign-up prior to a race
- live scoring on a monitor
- live scoring available thru wi-fi
- printable lap time sheets for sale
- posting final results online with lap times
- and a bunch more I can't think of at the moment
But again, all this sounds great but there is a cost to have a dedicated person or group to run this entire system.
WRMC has one dedicated reader at sign-up and four readers being used at the finish line of whatever race is being run. They are moved for each type of race (MX, flat track, hare scramble). They are basically just a big grocery store scanner.
Again, late sign-ups or people wanting to change, add or back out of a class really screws things up after the race order has been set up in the computer. You need to close sign-up at least a half hour before the first race starts.
WRMC did set up a monitor with live scoring for the 2-man/4-hour race. It would be hard for a person who only uses the system a few times a year be able to use it to it's full capability like everyone is suggesting, but the possibilities could include:
- online sign-up prior to a race
- live scoring on a monitor
- live scoring available thru wi-fi
- printable lap time sheets for sale
- posting final results online with lap times
- and a bunch more I can't think of at the moment
But again, all this sounds great but there is a cost to have a dedicated person or group to run this entire system.