Comments, criticisms and human nature

hershey

hershey

PR Elite
So after my epic fail of a thread titled " Growing the sport" , one started recently about Apple Cabin track conditions and talking with friends this weekend I have thought much about the culture of Pitracer and human nature in general.

Some have eluded to not posting on this site because people like to bitch too much. In particular I have heard many track owners say this. Im wondering why this is any different than real life because I had a hard time figuring out why it is. By real life I mean up front and personal, in person face to face. A text from a friend this am put it all into prospective for me.

In real life people are too afraid most times to say what is on their mind. They .....1.....dont want to be in a confrontational situation... 2....too shy to talk in general ....3....dont want to look stupid ....or ....4.... dont want to offend people

I venture to say that a very large percentage of people reading ideas on here agree and say so when it is something many agree with and isnt negative in any way at all.

Then you have the criticisms about tracks.....while there are a few jack a***s posting stupid stuff without real concerns or problems, Id say the largest majority are real criticisms with no meaning of ill will to the track or track crew. Being on the web you cant judge the emotional meaning of the individual giving the criticism. Some tracks take this personal and some understand its feedback.

Take the Apple Cabin post. The OP gave his comments and they didnt seem too harsh, Frank gave a fantastic reply and all is well. Then we have some adds to that with another member giving his ideas. Now personally I feel that his concerns were legit (meaning he was being genuine with out meaning to upset anyone) but since he didnt start out or give any positive feedback first he got ripped to shreds and went downhill from there.

And my post about growing the sport. It was just an idea I had about getting pee wee kids hooked. Somehow it turned into a track bashing ( or some people thought it was ) thread with a bunch of pissed off people.

So why is this? Why do people take any form of criticism as an insult ? And what good does it do any one by not voicing concerns, criticisms or ideas ? Isnt that how people and businesses grow---fundamentally, emotionally? How they learn , grow and improve?

Back to this site and the criticisms.

There are a few of us on here who type what we think, what we like and dont like. We stick to what we say, meaning we are genuine. There are the members who type just to piss people off. Then there is a big group who type on here what they think people want to hear but behind the scenes have a different tune. The latter group are the ones I dont understand the most. Although the ones just trying to piss people off are annoying, they arent doing it much and everyone knows what it is. It is actually a little entertaining. But the ones who say on here things are great but then talking to them in person they have complaints ..... what good does that do anybody? Those are the ones who create more problems than anyone. How does a business ( meaning a track ) or person learn their weakness so they can improve if they dont receive honest feedback ?

A friend of mine got me thinking this am with that text, I had to agree and post. Way too many on here fall into that last category and I dont understand why.
 
I chalk it up to... It takes all kinds to make the world go round!

The majority of people don't like confrontation that criticism produces, good or bad!

They believe it's always sunshine and roses and when it's not... they hide or something like that.
 
The more I learn about other people, the more confused I get. My good friend and I just realized that maybe were the odd balls and everyone else is the norm. One thing I have noticed is the younger generation cant handle confrontation or competition even. I train new guys at work and its a flat out nightmare trying to get guys to give more than zero effort. Its insane. And when you criticize them, its over. Pure crybabies. When someone tells me I screwed up, ill work twice as hard to correct MY problem. Most people nowadays refuse to aknowledge their shortcomings and its sad.
 
I try to post what i "really" feel without offending people (sometimes its impossible). But I agree... I feel like 80% of the people here only post what people "want" to hear.. AKA man the track today was great, but then later they text their buddies saying how this jump sucks and it throws you funny and we all almost kept crashing there, it needs refaced... or how they always seem to forget to prep this part of the track, or whatever.

Just an example no real life situation there, nobody panic or get offended .

But WHY are people not allowed to make that type of criticism? That is helpful stuff. Like a jump having a nasty kicker in it, that could prevent an injury. But I guarantee if somebody posted it, the track owner would get pissy, all the "everything is sunshine and roses" people would jump on board saying to go take it to the owner of the track, or just to be happy to have a place to ride, or whatever....

I'm not a confrontational person. I'd never go up to a track owner and say hey man your track sucks... but I'd gladly point out something unsafe or something simple that might really benefit them/riders. But you dont always think about those things until later on, or you dont always know WHO to talk to at the track. Isnt that the point of this forum, to be able to bring that stuff up?

But you cant, because everyone is a pussy (there, i said it) and will take offense to anything said. Grow a pair. Accept some constructive criticism, or don't run a business. (not to anyone in specific here, just in general).

And yes - theres plenty of dbags on here that make ridiculous stupid requests / demands / comments, we all know who they are.. and some have learned to ignore them, some still havent... its just the internet... read what you want and ignore the rest.

Am i far off base here or??????
 
Leave this on the main forum...its somewhat about moto and somewhat about non moto.

This is a good discussion to have...see where it goes.
 
BriarcliffMx said:
Non moto
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ck1racerx said:
Now that is constructive criticism. Focused on the act and not on the personality.
Criticism would be "Hershey, you DA. You posted in the wrong forum".
Learn the definition you d-bag. = Criticism. :D
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Actually it is moto related. It is about the recent moto discussions I mentioned and affects our sport. Like 23mx said, isnt that one of the reasons for this site? Along with bench racing, bragging, lying about how fast we were/are ?
 
Great topic Hershey. I'll chime in. The purpose of this site in my opinion is to grow the sport of motocross in this area. Like everyone on here I like to ride. I don't care much about motocross in CA. I do care deeply about motocross tracks in my 5 hour driving radius. There is absolutely nothing wrong with constructive criticism. If taken the right way tracks will benefit and prosper from positive constructive rider feedback. This feedback should be taken to the owner directly if possible. 9 out of 10 times the owner cares, knows about the problem and something happened out of his control. The water truck broke down this morning or got stuck. 40 mph winds were not in the forecast. etc. Sometimes you think about something on a Tuesday morning and yes this site is a great place to discuss all things motocross. The challenge on here has always been keeping it a constructive discussion.

Why does it need to be constructive? What's wrong with a little negative feedback? Read the definitions below. Negative and destructive criticism deal with tearing down and destroying. What happens when we destroy all the tracks around here? Then we're left with destroying all the tracks that are a further drive. If someone feels that strongly about something then be constructive and come up with a better solution. Volunteer at your track. I guarantee after 8 hours on a dozer they'll start looking at things differently. Start your own track and do it better.



Constructive criticism
Constructive criticism aims to show that the intent or purpose of something is better served by an alternative approach. In this case, making the criticism is not necessarily deemed wrong, and its purpose is respected; rather, it is claimed that the same goal could be better achieved via a different route. Constructive criticisms are often suggestions for improvement – how things could be done better or more acceptably. They draw attention to how an identified problem could be solved, or how it could be solved better.

Destructive criticism
Destructive criticism aims to destroy the target of criticism, by making the destructive criticism (e.g. "you should shut up and follow the program"). The aim is to show that the point of view of someone else has no validity at all, or lacks any merit.

In some contexts, destructive criticism is regarded as an undesirable nuisance, a threat, or as completely unjustifiable, especially if it involves personal attacks on people. Destructive criticism is often criticized because it has a destructive effect, instead of a positive effect (this may also just be an accusation or allegation, if there is no proof that the effect actually is destructive).

Negative criticism
Negative criticism means voicing an objection to something, only with the purpose of showing that it is wrong, false, mistaken, nonsensical, objectionable, or disreputable. Generally, it suggests disapproval of something, or disagreement with something - it emphasizes the downsides of something. Negative criticism is also often interpreted as an attack against a person (ad hominem). That may not have been the intention, but it can be interpreted that way.

Negative criticism can have the effect that the people criticized feel attacked or insulted by it, so that they either do not take it seriously, or react badly to it. Much often depends on how much negative criticism there is, and how much criticism is transmitted at once. People can handle some negative criticism, but they may not be able to handle a whole lot of negative criticism, at least not all at once.


Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varieties_of_criticism
 
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I think it's a good part of what hersheys friend suggested... This is the new Wikipedia term for engaging thru the Internet on topics or events
 

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I have a number of thoughts running through my head after reading thread after thread on the new and the old post. First off, we all have an opinion on many topics in life and specifically MX but most of what we do and believe has to do with how we were raised, our culture, social status, social environment, education, moral compass, values, integrity, maturity, self confidence and personality traits etc.. The problem is their are people in life that just can't handle criticism and let's face it most of us don't like to be judged in anyway, it's just not fun. I do notice that some of the people on hear handle criticism very well and others not so much. Let's face it the ones that don't handle it well are truly hurting their image and the popularity of their tracks which in the end is dollars and cents to their business or lack thereof. I know of a track that, I personally love or at least my son does but their are people who will not go there because they don't like this person. Is he a bad person, absolutely not but the way he comes across is very abrasive and to some offensive. I'm sure if you asked him he would say, "oh well, they can go somewhere else," but is that really what he wants???? I doubt it!!! I'm not a business owner, but I do know how to treat people and try to understand where they are coming from and be non-confrontational, it's my job, I'm in sales. (Side note) So many people dislike salesmen, I get it they got scammed or lied to by a shyster not a salesman. So, what's my point, I have to handle people on a daily basis with out offending them, it's how I get paid, while taking care of their issues. I don't berate them or humiliate them, I let them vent, listen very closely, ask them if I'm understanding them correctly, give them a solution to their problem and then do what I told them, I would do for them. Simple as that. By the way they normally tear me or my company a new a$$ hole, tell me how inept we are, I don't get defensive, I listen, let them calm down and take care of their problem.
There also seems to be a misconception that if you own a business you are some how an expert at marketing, sales, event planning, advertising, growing an industry, design, strategic planning, accounting, finance, money management, people skills or management, building employee morale, tax laws, code requirements, investment strategies for you and your employees, and so on, "well here's a News Flash" you might be good in one or two of those areas but you probably really suck at the rest. I deal with owners of businesses every day and quite honestly they don't have a clue how to run a business, their not business men, they have no specific training or education to run a business, they either had a dream to do it (with no plan or money) or as in most of the cases, they didn't want to or couldn't work for someone so, they started their own business which is a recipe for failure or at least a life time of struggle. My point here is just because you own a business it doesn't mean that you have all the answers it probably just means you know your trade and not much else. I doubt your the next Donald Trump. So don't assume that just because you own a business makes you a successful businessman that has all the facets of business handled. So, some people have some good suggestion for the track owners but obviously they can't do everything that people suggest or they would just be chasing their tails, but the track owners should at least listen, take it in, think about it and then decide what is best for their business. Don't be so quick to post something or say something that is going to hurt you, others or your business. I think most of what is put on PR is good information and meant to help not hurt others, I know I enjoy all the different insights, that's why I hit the like button for many of the posts even if they are opposing views. I've learned over the years there's normally a little truth to both sides. Also, I find it interesting that Chillitown MX received best track in Ohio and I know I'm not the only one that questions this. Is it the best "track" probably not but do they put on a Great Event, have the best facilities, a crew of people that bust their butts, are pleasant to deal with, are organized and truly care about the whole package that they deliver, I think so and that my friends is how you get voted best track in Ohio. So, for all of you track owners thank you for providing all of us a place to ride and busting your butts to give us the best product that you know how to, at a reasonable price. For those of you that want to keep growing your business, keep listening to your customers with an open mind and it will be worth it because with out us, all you have is some costly dirt piles and taxes. Again track owners that try to provide a good track, THANK YOU!!!!
 
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day181 said:
Volunteer at your track. I guarantee after 8 hours on a dozer they'll start looking at things differently. Start your own track and do it better.
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This would make a great section on Pit Racer. A forum where people could volunteer for various duties (with experience and or expertise) and tracks could post opportunities.
I have offered may time several times on here and only one track has ever contacted me. A conversation was had and I happily did what I could to help (Yes, I am still working on the second request)
Now, don't ask me to run a weedeater for 8 hours. I don't know how they work. Run a dozer and build some obstacles that promote multiple lines, or crunch some data to help promote your track... I'm your guy.
 
john lilly said:
I have a number of thoughts running through my head after reading thread after thread on the new and the old post. First off, we all have an opinion on many topics in life and specifically MX but most of what we do and believe has to do with how we were raised, our culture, social status, social environment, education, moral compass, values, integrity, maturity, self confidence and personality traits etc.. The problem is their are people in life that just can't handle criticism and let's face it most of us don't like to be judged in anyway, it's just not fun. I do notice that some of the people on hear handle criticism very well and others not so much. Let's face it the ones that don't handle it well are truly hurting their image and the popularity of their tracks which in the end is dollars and cents to their business or lack thereof. I know of a track that, I personally love or at least my son does but their are people who will not go there because they don't like this person. Is he a bad person, absolutely not but the way he comes across is very abrasive and to some offensive. I'm sure if you asked him he would say, "oh well, they can go somewhere else," but is that really what he wants???? I doubt it!!! I'm not a business owner, but I do know how to treat people and try to understand where they are coming from and be non-confrontational, it's my job, I'm in sales. (Side note) So many people dislike salesmen, I get it they got scammed or lied to by a shyster not a salesman. So, what's my point, I have to handle people on a daily basis with out offending them, it's how I get paid, while taking care of their issues. I don't berate them or humiliate them, I let them vent, listen very closely, ask them if I'm understanding them correctly, give them a solution to their problem and then do what I told them, I would do for them. Simple as that. By the way they normally tear me or my company a new a$$ hole, tell me how inept we are, I don't get defensive, I listen, let them calm down and take care of their problem.
There also seems to be a misconception that if you own a business you are some how an expert at marketing, sales, event planning, advertising, growing an industry, design, strategic planning, accounting, finance, money management, people skills or management, building employee morale, tax laws, code requirements, investment strategies for you and your employees, and so on, "well here's a News Flash" you might be good in one or two of those areas but you probably really suck at the rest. I deal with owners of businesses every day and quite honestly they don't have a clue how to run a business, their not business men, they have no specific training or education to run a business, they either had a dream to do it (with no plan or money) or as in most of the cases, they didn't want to or couldn't work for someone so, they started their own business which is a recipe for failure or at least a life time of struggle. My point here is just because you own a business it doesn't mean that you have all the answers it probably just means you know your trade and not much else. I doubt your the next Donald Trump. So don't assume that just because you own a business makes you a successful businessman that has all the facets of business handled. So, some people have some good suggestion for the track owners but obviously they can't do everything that people suggest or they would just be chasing their tails, but the track owners should at least listen, take it in, think about it and then decide what is best for their business. Don't be so quick to post something or say something that is going to hurt you, others or your business. I think most of what is put on PR is good information and meant to help not hurt others, I know I enjoy all the different insights, that's why I hit the like button for many of the posts even if they are opposing views. I've learned over the years there's normally a little truth to both sides. Also, I find it interesting that Chillitown MX received best track in Ohio and I know I'm not the only one that questions this. Is it the best "track" probably not but do they put on a Great Event, have the best facilities, a crew of people that bust their butts, are pleasant to deal with, are organized and truly care about the whole package that they deliver, I think so and that my friends is how you get voted best track in Ohio. So, for all of you track owners thank you for providing all of us a place to ride and busting your butts to give us the best product that you know how to, at a reasonable price. For those of you that want to keep growing your business, keep listening to your customers with an open mind and it will be worth it because with out us, all you have is some costly dirt piles and taxes. Again track owners that try to provide a good track, THANK YOU!!!!
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I would like to throw my 2 cents I here...
I own and operate a small restaurant a few miles from the track. There is no forum for comments or criticism for the restaurant industry so we listen very close to our customers. On pit racer a lot of people that comment come across as being petty or just plain ol bitching or bashing. I've found you just have to listen to the complaints or comments and learn from them. Lol when I first opened these tracks I drilled few 1/4" holes in the bumper of our first water truck thinking that was enough water, now we have 2 water trucks capable of pumping in to the tracks around 8000 gallons an hour putting around 70,000 gallons a weekend on the tracks. My point is running tracks is a learning experience and myself being very hard headed it's taken a while to just listen. Heck when I first opened these tracks I thought the gentleman that operated the other local track was a complete ASS! Now I find myself being an ass and watch his operation in awe of what has been accomplished by them..
 
You guys sound like a bunch of old vets..LOL...Dave needs some therapy sessions or something.He is the only one to really really let his feelings out!! The site is great,Place to bitch and complain,Apple frank has been running the track for 20 years,I only have seen like five complaints ever about the place!!! That's a good track record for a track around here! How far is davefest from Malvern ? maybe there should be a new forum..."deep thoughts" Dave..Georgie can be the main guys!!
 
I will give you my honest reason for this thread.

After the "growing our sport" thread I was amazed at the anger caused. The reasoning was purely a innocent thought I had, a local track owner had charged me $10 a head for my kids on the Pee Wee track and honestly I wouldnt have returned last year had he not. It was just too early for my little girl and taking one kid to ride didnt seem fair to them at this age. That will change as they grow and take different hobbies possibly.

At any rate, it got that track an extra ride day from us, he also sold a few more hot dogs and hamburgers. So I figured maybe there were many other small fry riders with parents that would test out the sport more if the price was right. Turns out the very track owner that gave me the idea got pretty upset with me about starting the thread. I called him and we cleared the air, all is good still.

But I dont understand where in the service industry ( which your local MX track is ) there is such a thing as destructive criticism ( thanks for the definitions Chuck ). After all, like Lilly said you are in sales. Its the nature of the game, it sucks but you have to learn to embrace it for the wonderful pure marketing material you get! Weed out the garbage and learn. Learn like Lonnie has, listen and dont get defensive. That is another great way to grow the sport!!!!

And that is what this site is about......keeping the sport we love alive in our area.

Davefest is 25 minutes from Malvern BTW! And I have been listening, learning at my place! Need more fuel and time before lighting at this years fire!
 
Dude I have seen two fires....The only thing you need is a safety zone around the fire!! or signs that say"If holding a child in one hand and a alcoholic beverage in the other please refrain from running TOWARDS THE LIGHTING OF THE FIRE" hahaha FLAME ON!
 
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