If AHRMA holds a race and nobodys shows up, was it still a race?

Mike

Mike

PR Addict
So WTF, all of us mid-west guys thought that Cali was the motherlode of MX.

AHRMA holds a race at Cahuilla Creek, in Temecula CA and only 7 guys show up.

7 classes, 1 in each

Did they run 7 separate gates?

Or one gate, and everyone did a back to back and still had time to get to McDonalds before breakfast was over?

Surprisingly every participant went 1 -1

Easy on trophy’s, just need 7 first place awards.

No protests in any class over the results, if you showed up you were 1st, (THAT’S THE OBAMA PLAN) everyone is equal and everyone is a winner.

We had 72 class entries in Pell City Al the same weekend, great track, good racing.

Congratulations to the participants ( winners )

AHRMA/Race Tech National Post Vintage Motocross Series

Cahuilla Creek MX


Historic 500 Expert

1. Rick Daniel, Yam (1-1)

Grand Prix 500 Expert

1. Rick Daniel, Yam (1-1)

Ultima 125 Intermediate

1. Nicky Trevino, Mai (1-1)

Ultima 500 Intermediate

1. Don Hansing, Yam (1-1)

Ultima 500 Expert

1. Rick Daniel, Yam (1-1)

50+ Intermediate

1. Don Hansing, Yam (1-1)

50+ Expert

1. Rick Daniel, Yam (1-1)
 
Similar to other decisions on dates it really was a bad idea to run that the same weekend as the USGP less than an hour a away at Glen Helen. I am willing to bet there weren't modern MX races that weekend. I have been to that race and if I had the choice I think I would have been there.
 
I was right around the corner at a buddy's house with multiple cool Maicos and air hammers (500s). But we went to Glen
Helen. Febvre's pass on Webb down the hill, after banging bars a bunch going up, was awesome. Heat was awesome
too - 105F but it's a dry heat.
 
72 entries isn't a win either. Tracks can't survive on less than 100 entry turnouts. I know 1st hand.

Vintage racing is at crossroads and needs something before its gone. Go check out vital mx home page and listen to Rick Dougherty tell us why non current racing is so important to his business and vintage racing.

Time to stop blaming ama or ahrma or the classes or running with modern bikes or the jumps big small bunches or few. I was serious about trying to put together an east coast vintage series for 2016 and I can't find 3 tracks that willing to take the risk.

At some point there has to be market to tap into and the problem doesn't lie with the guys THAT did go to pell city. Also time to stop listening to the guys racing tell us their market approach or theories to lackluster vintage turnouts,racers race they don't promote. We need a national promotors to figure out how to make us all drive 300 miles to a cool event. They don't see the value in that, yet. But it could happen as Rick D spells out.

There are big races running most weekends in the country but they are all not vintage themed events but they have dirt, jumps and starting gates. In fact top gun showdown is couple weeks away. Should be 800 to 1,000 entries. Seems like enough, I got the money, gonna have 45 & 50+ class, my '89 yz wants to go, yet I'm reluctant, weird.
 
Mike said:
So WTF, all of us mid-west guys thought that Cali was the motherlode of MX.

AHRMA holds a race at Cahuilla Creek, in Temecula CA and only 7 guys show up.

7 classes, 1 in each

Did they run 7 separate gates?

Or one gate, and everyone did a back to back and still had time to get to McDonalds before breakfast was over?

Surprisingly every participant went 1 -1

Easy on trophy’s, just need 7 first place awards.

No protests in any class over the results, if you showed up you were 1st, (THAT’S THE OBAMA PLAN) everyone is equal and everyone is a winner.

We had 72 class entries in Pell City Al the same weekend, great track, good racing.

Congratulations to the participants ( winners )

AHRMA/Race Tech National Post Vintage Motocross Series

Cahuilla Creek MX


Historic 500 Expert

1. Rick Daniel, Yam (1-1)

Grand Prix 500 Expert

1. Rick Daniel, Yam (1-1)

Ultima 125 Intermediate

1. Nicky Trevino, Mai (1-1)

Ultima 500 Intermediate

1. Don Hansing, Yam (1-1)

Ultima 500 Expert

1. Rick Daniel, Yam (1-1)

50+ Intermediate

1. Don Hansing, Yam (1-1)

50+ Expert

1. Rick Daniel, Yam (1-1)
Click to expand...
Mike in California cal vmx is what those guys ride.when I was out there ahrma had about 10 + or -,cal vmx prob 250-300 riders,I rode in gates with them.Out there its not an AMA vs AHRMA thing they dont like either of them!
 
team186 said:
72 entries isn't a win either. Tracks can't survive on less than 100 entry turnouts. I know 1st hand.

Vintage racing is at crossroads and needs something before its gone. Go check out vital mx home page and listen to Rick Dougherty tell us why non current racing is so important to his business and vintage racing.

Time to stop blaming ama or ahrma or the classes or running with modern bikes or the jumps big small bunches or few. I was serious about trying to put together an east coast vintage series for 2016 and I can't find 3 tracks that willing to take the risk.

At some point there has to be market to tap into and the problem doesn't lie with the guys THAT did go to pell city. Also time to stop listening to the guys racing tell us their market approach or theories to lackluster vintage turnouts,racers race they don't promote. We need a national promotors to figure out how to make us all drive 300 miles to a cool event. They don't see the value in that, yet. But it could happen as Rick D spells out.

There are big races running most weekends in the country but they are all not vintage themed events but they have dirt, jumps and starting gates. In fact top gun showdown is couple weeks away. Should be 800 to 1,000 entries. Seems like enough, I got the money, gonna have 45 & 50+ class, my '89 yz wants to go, yet I'm reluctant, weird.
Click to expand...

So maybe 72 riders is not a huge success, however this was a first year event. They are interested in growing it in the future and they were quite pleased to hold the event. I drove 602 miles each way and plan to go back next year, great track.

In my opinion there really only 4 "COOL EVENTS" in the vintage mx world.

AHRMA holds two, Diamond Don's is really the "spring break" event of vmx, good racing, lots of former stars, 100cc works revenge and the biggest vintage MX party. Unadilla is the best # 1 vintage race held in the USA each year, the track is such a historic, fun, challenging venue. Until you have launched your vintage bike into GRAVITY CAVITY, you have not experienced the ultimate VMX rush. Its also loaded with stars and the opportunity to race against Chuck Sun, John Dowd and others. Plus a free dinner, bench racing session, and lots of giveaways sponsored by THOR completes the event.

AMA's Mid- Ohio Vintage Days is the largest event annually. The racing is fun, the track ok, not great but pretty good for a parking lot. But the event and atmosphere make it a must do annual event. Definitely qualifies as a cool event.

The fourth has to be Farliegh Castle VMXdN, its on my bucket list and looks to have all the qualities of the first three events.

If you or anyone else can create a new event that rivals theses I think you would find that rider support would be good. I agree this is not an AMA / AHRMA issue as much as promoters embracing and investing in a long term strategy to build a significant vmx event. That being said I know that in the Midwest AHRMA we will have 4 -6 regional races next year as well as the typical National schedule. I think we are all optimistic that the AMA will get back into vintage MX next year after this years hiatus.
 
team186 said:
Also time to stop listening to the guys racing tell us their market approach or theories to lackluster vintage turnouts,racers race they don't promote.
Click to expand...

Not sure I understand why you took a shot at what has been "mostly" constructive input that the AMA, AHRMA, or promoters could use as insight for increasing participation and gate sizes.

It might be time to ignore my market strategy suggestions, but they seemed to track closely what Rick Dougherty said about non-current and the ages of racers that will have money to spend on nostalgic pursuits. There is a lot of competition for how guys like me can spend discretionary income.

There will always be a need to sort through customer input for irrelevant noise and negativity to find the nuggets that will help grow a business - but you can't stop listening and asking existing or potential customers what will motivate them to spend money.

I might just be a dumba#$ from Kentucky but I have worked business strategy/promotion in well over 100 countries and helped get about 50 startups formed and running.

My offer to spend some time helping with a Vision, Strategy, and Market plan for vintage, post vintage, and non-current racing was made with the best of intentions.

Another stupid market strategy suggestion - reading at the all the comments and threads about how to make motocross safer, obstacles too big, too much horsepower, track design, injuries, and on and on.... and I can't help but think there is a promotional opportunity for Post Vintage/Non-Current as a safer alternative for people that might want to race but need to lessen their risk of injury.

Dan
(859) 426-5700
 
mxkid said:
Mike any word on the regional races for next year?
Click to expand...
So from talking to Dave Woolever our regional AHRMA director I know the following. His goal is 6 races next year, likely all in Ohio. I believe that Dirt Country, RT 62, Delta have all committed to hold one or more events. Dave is still looking for one or two additional tracks, and asked for help. So contact suitable tracks and let them know, we can put the in touch with Dave. For any track that has ever considered holding vintage races this would be a good opportunity to give it a try.

And I think he would like a few tracks in KY, IN or MI if you know of any suitable venues.
 
I doubt that they would be interested,but malvern would be good if they ran the track in they did in the gp last year.Anybody that does one of these races needs some kind of modern classes to make it worth while.
 
Mike said:
So from talking to Dave Woolever our regional AHRMA director I know the following. His goal is 6 races next year, likely all in Ohio. I believe that Dirt Country, RT 62, Delta have all committed to hold one or more events. Dave is still looking for one or two additional tracks, and asked for help. So contact suitable tracks and let them know, we can put the in touch with Dave. For any track that has ever considered holding vintage races this would be a good opportunity to give it a try.

And I think he would like a few tracks in KY, IN or MI if you know of any suitable venues.
Click to expand...
Portland,mi had a ahrma national 3 yrs ago,? Good track for vintage race. Smith Road in medina? Maybe next time ur talking to ur buddy J.O. Briar cliff will sign up!!!
 
I love your passion, but I think vintage racing is on its death bed. The over saturation of events for the incredibly few enthusiasts is just not sustainable. The fighting of AHRMA and AMA on top of the millions of class offerings with little to no turnout has pushed some away (including myself) and the vintage only events have kept it in he shadows of the people who mite care but are not going to know about it because they are not going to travel any distance just to find out about it.
Taking it to new tracks and trying to build a regional series is a questionable business plan at best. Attendance has told you the product is not wanted. Why continue the same broken plan? The 4 cool events Mike listed above is where you need to focus. There is nothing wrong wit that.
This year there should have been a big up turn in attendance for vintage racing. Every race both inside and out had the Legends and Hero's group there and I believe every event had past HUGE name ex-racers on the big screen doing interviews. People know about the product and yet few are buying
I hope Im wrong but I fear im not.

Good Luck guys.

This is the first time I have ever post on PitRacer and really did not want to hit the Post Reply button. Vintage bikes are cool but too few people feel the same way.
Sorry?
 
I count 3 guys showing up....7 entries.

On its death bed, knox? Sounds like the lid is shut and there is dirt on it.
 
ck1racerx said:
I love your passion, but I think vintage racing is on its death bed. The over saturation of events for the incredibly few enthusiasts is just not sustainable. The fighting of AHRMA and AMA on top of the millions of class offerings with little to no turnout has pushed some away (including myself) and the vintage only events have kept it in he shadows of the people who mite care but are not going to know about it because they are not going to travel any distance just to find out about it.
Taking it to new tracks and trying to build a regional series is a questionable business plan at best. Attendance has told you the product is not wanted. Why continue the same broken plan? The 4 cool events Mike listed above is where you need to focus. There is nothing wrong wit that.
This year there should have been a big up turn in attendance for vintage racing. Every race both inside and out had the Legends and Hero's group there and I believe every event had past HUGE name ex-racers on the big screen doing interviews. People know about the product and yet few are buying
I hope Im wrong but I fear im not.

Good Luck guys.

This is the first time I have ever post on PitRacer and really did not want to hit the Post Reply button. Vintage bikes are cool but too few people feel the same way.
Sorry?
Click to expand...

I agree with some of your observations, and appreciate your honesty. Vintage racing is a blast, but participation is obviously waning. This reminds me of National Enduros 10 years ago. Before the NEPG took the series over in 2007(?) as the national promoting partner of the AMA, there was little consistency within the series and only about 150 riders typically showed up at each race (this is an average estimate). Now, entries are being capped at 500 riders and pre-entry is being filled within hours online. Younger racer participation has also increased and sponsorship support has brought a new vitality and media attention. Some purists have scoffed at the changes, but a major overhaul in format and event regulations have made the series viable to a larger group of racers. Overall, this willingness to evolve and adapt has paid dividends.

My point is that like Vintage racing, Enduros have always been a good product. The difference is how that product is delivered, who is organizing and managing the series, and how the series is marketed. I don't need to echo all of our previous statements regarding the AHRMA/AMA conflict.... but, I do not believe a niche form of racing cannot grow, nay sustain, under two separate associations. Further, I am not implying that Vintage racing will see the numbers the National Enduros are receiving. But I think this is a prime example of how restructuring, organization improvement, and event consistency have positively impacted a sector of Off-Road Motorcycle Racing. I'm not willing to call Vintage Racing dead, but we need a shot in the arm.
 
The biggest change in Enduro wasn't restructuring, organization improvement, or anything else you mention.
It was changing to not requiring time keeping. Having done time keeping enduros and the special test version
of today, it's in incredibly good move on their part.

Vintage racing will need just as big a change. I don't know what that big change is but as long as
vintage bikes are ridden by vintage guys, it will continue to shrink as we get old and die off. The huge
influx of motocrossers in the 70's hasn't been duplicated and I don't expect it will be anytime soon.
 
sturd said:
The biggest change in Enduro wasn't restructuring, organization improvement, or anything else you mention.
It was changing to not requiring time keeping. Having done time keeping enduros and the special test version
of today, it's in incredibly good move on their part.

Vintage racing will need just as big a change. I don't know what that big change is but as long as
vintage bikes are ridden by vintage guys, it will continue to shrink as we get old and die off. The huge
influx of motocrossers in the 70's hasn't been duplicated and I don't expect it will be anytime soon.
Click to expand...

Yes, going to the restart format was a major difference, but I believe the other factors contributed greatly as well to the resurgence of the Enduro series.
 
ck1racerx said:
I love your passion, but I think vintage racing is on its death bed. The over saturation of events for the incredibly few enthusiasts is just not sustainable. The fighting of AHRMA and AMA on top of the millions of class offerings with little to no turnout has pushed some away (including myself) and the vintage only events have kept it in he shadows of the people who mite care but are not going to know about it because they are not going to travel any distance just to find out about it.
Taking it to new tracks and trying to build a regional series is a questionable business plan at best. Attendance has told you the product is not wanted. Why continue the same broken plan? The 4 cool events Mike listed above is where you need to focus. There is nothing wrong wit that.
This year there should have been a big up turn in attendance for vintage racing. Every race both inside and out had the Legends and Hero's group there and I believe every event had past HUGE name ex-racers on the big screen doing interviews. People know about the product and yet few are buying
I hope Im wrong but I fear im not.

Good Luck guys.

This is the first time I have ever post on PitRacer and really did not want to hit the Post Reply button. Vintage bikes are cool but too few people feel the same way.
Sorry?
Click to expand...


First let me say I love old dirt bikes, I'm more comfortable on a 80's motocross bike then I am on my KTM 350 4 stroke.
I hate to say it but I agree with everything you wrote Chris (well said BTW). I think the boom for the PV was around 07/08 for those that just got into recently it was huge. Mid-Ohio had twice the riders back then, if you didn't get there on Friday morning it was damn near impossible to park. I think the decline was a combination of the economy going in the tank, maybe AHRMA splitting with AMA and guys just getting it out of their system (been there done that). and cost travelling to all the races.

I think of all the guys I raced with back then and most of them either quit riding, just do vet modern stuff or worst yet have passed (RIP) I'll support a local series best I can, I had a blast at the 80's flashback race in July at Dirt Country.

I wish I would have went to vest fest at Hi Point (they had vintage classes). I hope maybe Unadilla becomes the USA version of Farleigh Castle race. (that race looks so cool)
On the plus side bike prices have come down but on the negative I can't sell s**t these days.
 
Speaking of myself, I won't be wavering on my interest to race vintage/PV anytime soon. I've been at it for a while now and still feel like we just got started. Hitting the Big 50 mile marker this year only made the itch worse.

This has been an off year for Nancy and I on racing, which we knew it would be at the close of last year. Just needed a pause to get other priorities squared away. It has also allowed me to regain a clearer head on things going forward. (especially with 5 grandkids now and number 6 on the way).

It's ok if vintage/PV goes through up and down cycles, some of us will remain and be ready for the next revival.
 
So if you think VMX is dead, it just shows that GOOD track owners/promoters are good, and the dogs just bark.

This is this is the RIO BRAVO VMX weekend schedule 3 days of fun.

Riding, food, drinks, movies, and a huge turnout

Friday, November 13, 20115
Gate opens at 8:30am,
Motocross Track:
10:00am: - 4:00 pm Open (organized) practice
No Cross Country Race
Big Screen Movie Night in the Pavilion
7:00 pm Diamond Don & Gary Davis Fish and Oyster Fry
8:00pm Music,

Saturday, November 14, 2015
Gate opens at 7:00 am
7:00 - 8:30 am Sign --Up:
8:30 am Riders Meeting
8:45am Opening Ceremonies Invocation
9:00 - 9:15 am Practice: - Premier & Classic, Experts & Intermediate
9:15 - 9:30 am Practice: - Vintage & Sportsman, Experts & Intermediate
9:30 - 9:45 am Practice: -- All amateurs, 60+,70+ and Womens
9:45-10:00 am 1st moto Racing starts:
(Note: Normal AHRMA 100cc vintage class in normal schedule)
Intermission - Honorary Marty Tripes small bore vintage challenge Race (100 cc,125cc)
(Note:125 cc and smaller Bikes must be Pre 1986 model)
After intermission: 2st moto Racing:
Trophy Presentation: approximately 30 mins after the final race results are posted.
6:00 PM Tag Team Race (special prepped night track)
Tag Team Trophy Presentation: at Dinner
Evening- Big Screen Movie Night in the Pavilion
7:00 pm Spaghetti Dinner by Pino's Italion Sauces
7:30 pm Music (Brennen, Bill & Rio Bravo Band)
Big Screen Movies in background

Sunday, November 15, 2015
Gate opens at 7:00 am
Sign-Up: 7:00 am to 8:30 am
8:30 am Riders Meeting
8:45am Invocation & Church Service
8:55am National Anthem
9:00 - 9:15am Practice: Historic & GP Expert & Intermediate
9:15 - 9:30 am Practice: Ultima & Open age Expert & Intermediate
9:30-9:45 am Practice: All amatures & Women
9:45-10:00 am 1st moto Racing starts
Old School motocross reunion & Bike Show Activities:
10:00 am Bike show sign up.
1:00pm Bike Show Voting ends
BBQ available all day with ticket or $$.
DRINKS: Iced tea, lemonade, water cooler all day.
Intermission Honorary Marty Tripes small bore challenge Race (100 cc,125cc)
Any year model 125cc 2-stroke allowed
( maybe scored at 2 levels)
one hour intermission for bike show awards
After Intermission: 2st moto Racing
Trophy Presentation: approximately 30 mins, after the final race results are posted
Evening- Wine Down Party - Hang out for special event sponsored by Red Bull
 
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