BriarcliffMx
PR Founding Father
I think all C class riders should wear neck braces!!
C class struggles.
- Thread starter GeorgiePorgie
- Start date
GeorgiePorgie
PR Founding Father
Well if you want to contribute.....the OMA was supposed to be this organization that tries stuff differently.....
Just sayin'. Do you try the B/C format for 2016? If it fails horribly do you revert back to the ABC structure?
Just sayin'. Do you try the B/C format for 2016? If it fails horribly do you revert back to the ABC structure?
BriarcliffMx
PR Founding Father
My bank doesnt not accept "well my idea failed horribly this year" as a method of payment.
John250
PR Founding Father
Bingo. Hershey is 100% correct. Alex is getting sucked into the AMA way of thinking. Lets put the blinders on so we think we have fixed the problem.
Once again, I am telling you the C class did not used to be like this. There were fast guys, but the moved on up. A kid that trains every single day, rides at SOB, flies over 110 foot triples, and is as fast as the mid pack B riders are NOT C riders. C class = Novice
a person new to or inexperienced in a field or situation.
"he was a complete novice in foreign affairs"
synonyms: beginner, learner, neophyte, newcomer, initiate, tyro, fledgling;
This is not someone in the C class at Lorettas. I have a hard time when the AMA feels someone with 7 or 8 years experience on minis and one or two on big bikes falls into this class. But at the end of the day, the AMA will do nothing about it, because Tim Cotter and Davy Combs don't want to do anything about it. Lets be serious here, Alex and his crew make no decisions without consulting MX Sports first, and as Knox would say.....its all about the combs making money.
B Class = Intermediate. This is where all Loretta C riders fall.
AMA and OMA should run a true 1 or 2 year Open 125 - 450 Beginner class for those new riders. And SW Ohio MX could drop the 85 extra class to add a true to life 65 -85 beginner class.
honda907
PR Addict
Right on! The best reply to the status quo I have read on ANY message board EVER to this touchy subject.
jstory
PR Addict
Hershey, I have to disagree with you. Everyone here seems focused on the "sandbaggers" which you have said make up a small percentage of the "C" class. Why would you react by changing the rules for a small percentage of that population? They are continuing to modify the advancement system to try and catch the few that are finding loop holes or ways to avoid advancement. The majority of the "C" class population are not doing anything wrong even by your criteria. Why would they not be discouraged if they were forced to race a B/C class? They would be coming to the races knowing they have little chance to do well. If that were me I would not be too excited to go racing. The it will make you faster line is also not a good excuse. Sure practice with better people to make you faster. But race with the class you are competitive in and when you get advanced then move up. This sport is as much about the mental side of things as it is the physical. Making someone compete in a situation where the bar is set out of reach is discouraging. Once that is in a riders head they are already beat. Then the next step is loss of motivation to even try. It would be irresponsible for the AMA to make a knee jerk reaction to address such a small percentage of the racing population.
In any class you can watch and see the riders that excel and the ones that are there trying but don't have the same success. I don't see why the focus is always on the "C" class when it comes to this. You have the same situation in the "B" class and the "A" class for that matter. Should we make some changes to address those classes and stop the same riders from winning each time? I don't see the difference in logic.
As far as this site being "pure market feedback" that would be a stretch to say the least. There have been a hand full of people involved in this thread and I know the majority of them have nothing to do with the "C" class. How is that good feedback when the customers being discussed of affected are not even represented. I cant say that I blame them either I'm sure their opinion would be attacked if they decided to chime in.
While the AMA is not perfect I do see them trying to improve and adapt.
BriarcliffMx
PR Founding Father
I think everyone needs a hug, a medal and an ice cream cone so they will not get discouraged from racing.......not everyone is cut out for motocross. If your feelings get hurt because someone is faster than maybe you should try another sport?? Pussification of America rolls on. When i get beat, I try to work on what im doing wrong so I can get faster and maybe win the next time. Compete against yourself, dont worry about Johnny Mcgrath and Georgie Carmichael. Crying "its not fair" is like dealing with the kids. Lifes not fair, get over it. PR has now become a liberal breeding ground......free hugs this weekend at the cliff, i will buy a designated hugging tree, maybe a cactus (metaphor for life).
hershey
PR Elite
Alright Justin.....so if doing large jumps that more C riders are doing than B riders at times is ok then lets leave it be.
Its not Sandbaging , its not moving up and incorrect classification of C class. No one is saying you cheated so dont get defensive about Nick. You followed the rules....worthless rules. There is no way your son, or any rider with his experience, should be classified by the AMA as a novice rider.
Lets look at the definition of the word NOVICE
nov·ice
ˈnävəs/
noun
- a person new to or inexperienced in a field or situation.
"he was a complete novice in foreign affairs"
synonyms: beginner, learner, neophyte, newcomer, initiate, tyro,fledgling; More
So there in lies the problem. And you are correct, Nick wouldnt have been as competitive in the B class for LL last year either.
Just to put this into perspective for Alex and everyone else, So we arent picking on C class only, Ryan Dungey went pro directly from B class. Im sure there are others. So by the AMA being lax on advancement to protect the winning desire of B and C class riders only the REAL select few who take home the podium finishes are rewarded. How would Nick or any rider of his level even begin to compete with riders who are moving to factory racing teams for the nationals that same summer? The rest are being discouraged by knowing they cant compete against the riders who know they cant compete. Now By the time you reach B class you understand you cant win everything. But by then you are a seasoned rider who is vested in doing better and having fun. The NOVICE class is not. They are NEW ( see above definition ) to the sport and are learning the ropes, they still need to get "hooked" to the sport. They GROW our sport. NO offense Justin but you are looking at this through the eyes of a seasoned vet rider, a father of a boy who is chasing the dream. From your perspective you cant see the curiosity of a new and inexperienced racer.
As for the marketing.....yes I would call it pure market information. Like any other marketing research you know that only a small percentage of your market will respond to any type poll. But those few respondents represent by percentages what the entire demographic is feeling. ANy time this topic is brought up at the track, on here or any other board like this you get the EXACT same responses. A large majority see a massive problem with the classification system and a very small percentage do not. A smart marketing research person would gather that information and present it to their boss or client and suggest a change is needed. But in the case of the AMA .... lets give it BNG and sweep it under the rug.
hershey
PR Elite
Not pussification jackass, its about drawing in NEW riders. Who gives a rats ass if seasoned riders get their ass kicked?
Go get some decal remover
jstory
PR Addict
You are right. I wouldn't say my son was a true novice. I did say we didn't break any rules and he raced in a class that he met the criteria for according to the AMA. Is that system perfect? No! But if you understand how the advancement system works it make a really good attempt at advancing people. You do collect youth advancement points that go towards placing kids in a class after the youth classes. So after all of the racing my son has done he never accumulated enough of those points to advance him straight to "B". On top of that after numerous attempts for LL he never made it there either. Like I said before we just played within the rules. If the rules were different we would have done something different to stay within them. Either way I have no delusions of my son being a professional motocross racer. Sure I want him to do well but my main focus is having fun and we enjoy the traveling and competing in different areas.
But in 2 years he will be going to college. I just like that this sport is something we have in common and can spend time together doing.
That's enough about my son but I was trying to make a point using him as an example. In no way was as good as he is now in all of those prior years. The same goes for a lot of people. Some never have a significant increase in riding ability even after years of doing it. Take a look at the vet classes. You have a huge difference of talent in all of those classes. So if your saying just because someone has ridden for years they should be advanced I don't agree. I think there are plenty of riders who may never advance and by making some of the changes suggested it may be more harmful for the sport than it is beneficial. That is for promoters and riders alike. I am not saying things couldn't be better but I don't have the answers. If you make radical changes you will affect a lot more than the intended target.
I would like to see the rule of having no factory support expanded to all of amateur racing. You are right in the fact that it is hard to compete with kids getting factory support and equipment in every class all the way down to the 50's. I know the outcome would probably not change much. Those riders are good hence the reason they even have those deals but it might limit the access the special treatment an resources that is not available to everyone.
GeorgiePorgie
PR Founding Father
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Everybody's different I guess. Why does everyone have to do well ? Does anyone race themselves ? I sign up for classes and I ask "how many people are in the class" and if it's a low number I come back after practice to see if it boosted. If it did I sign up for it.
People are racing for wrong reasons if defeat is scaring you away from racing. Best life lesson to be learned while young is that your going to get beat somewhere no matter how hard you try. It's a good lesson.
What the c class in the AMA epitomizes is the small percentage of cheaters that reap reward on the backs of new hard workers trying to climb the chain. (Does this sound like a familiar street in New York...rhymes with mall, tall, and ball). Aha! You true novice, look how naturally talented you seem to be this early in life. "Sit down and shut up I've been doing this for many years but I'm going to stay at the top of the food chain and squash the talented novice because I'm actually seasoned veteran abusing some loop holes in the system." True novice: this sucks I quit. Bye bye future LOCAL revenue.
The reason the b class isn't complained about is because the class size is 10 locally. Once they leave the c class where do they go? National events only?! How do we consistently get 25-35 riders for c class and maybe break 10 in B locally? "It's cuz I'm tryin for lorettas."Or is it because now they don't want to finish 10th after smoking the competition for the past two years in C? God I want to face palm myself everytime I hear it.
A lot of people run national events for a battle. Whether it is for the top 7 or 25th. Racing people under pressure is what builds your experience. The result is minuscule and doesn't validate a anything in C Class.
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ck1racerx
PR Addict
As to not give a knee jerk reaction I desided to sleep on this issue and look at it from every possible angle. I just don't see how making the C class for 1 to 2 year riders could possible hurt the sport. Look at the facts. The average local C rider is in the sport less then 3 years and then they are on to the next shinny object. The guys that are still in the sport have either moved up or still running mid to back of the pack. The guys that are running mid pack after 5 years are motocrossers. They are not novice. No matter what they finish each week they are no longer "beginners" or "learning". They are slow. Nothing wrong with that. But how does finishing 14 in C keep him racing more then 29 in B class?
We are not alienating the "largest classification" we are moving them up so the largest classification can be the B class. That way when Joe Average desided to shell out 8k for a bike and dive into the clicky sport, he has a chance.
The argument of LL C class is even faster, IS THE PROBLEM. 99%of them are using the loophole to stay "C". Never mind that In order to qualify as a loophole it should be the exception found by very few and not the norm used by most. If they are that fast then they are not helping the sport by racing C. They are cheating. No, not by the rules but if you are good enought to dominate locally then you experienced enought to know your not a novice. A kid racing for years in youth then moving up to the big bikes are not novice. Lack of experience on a big bike? Sure but that is why we have the schoolboy classes.
Why after 30 years of C racing this is still a heated debate is all the evidence needed to know the system is broken. Making "slight corrections" was the same answer the AMA kicked out for decades. What is the limit of corrections attempted before failure is accepted? come on Alex your better then that.
We are not alienating the "largest classification" we are moving them up so the largest classification can be the B class. That way when Joe Average desided to shell out 8k for a bike and dive into the clicky sport, he has a chance.
The argument of LL C class is even faster, IS THE PROBLEM. 99%of them are using the loophole to stay "C". Never mind that In order to qualify as a loophole it should be the exception found by very few and not the norm used by most. If they are that fast then they are not helping the sport by racing C. They are cheating. No, not by the rules but if you are good enought to dominate locally then you experienced enought to know your not a novice. A kid racing for years in youth then moving up to the big bikes are not novice. Lack of experience on a big bike? Sure but that is why we have the schoolboy classes.
Why after 30 years of C racing this is still a heated debate is all the evidence needed to know the system is broken. Making "slight corrections" was the same answer the AMA kicked out for decades. What is the limit of corrections attempted before failure is accepted? come on Alex your better then that.
Double D
PR Founding Father
You had me at free ice cream! Wahoo.
GeorgiePorgie
PR Founding Father
It's funny because this same situation happened when I went from supermini to B class. We had 11 on the gate in District 12. And then the C class had 25 or more, and majority of them raced me the previous years in Supermini. (Especially the kids SMOKING everyone were the top 5 in C and raced Supermini competively the year before) It was like the "oh hey lets avoid Tommy Beckett, Kenny Henry and George Baker class but say we are only doing it to go to Loretta's" Kenny, Tommy and I didn't make it to lorettas in B. And all those kids didn't make it to loretta's in C. Looking back I wish we all would of been in a B/C class. Then instead of two way battles, we might of really diced it up and became better riders because there was easily 8 of us near the same speed. But we were separated by crappy rules. Now, Kenny had no problems getting better. But I think we would of got better faster with all of us racing eachother.
Now Story's situation I don't blame him for running C class. He's within the rules. Scott Leighton a few years ago, same situation. He was within the said rules. This isn't about pointing the finger and making the riders look evil. If they are within the rules then let them do it.
I just wish we could eliminate the bull s**t at the local level and all have fun racing each other in full gates without screwing over the people who have to deal with the national sandbagging issue who are within the rules to compete. Locally the 25 C riders + 10 B riders = 35 on the gate. And I can guarantee you that the guys winning the C class (at malvern for example could be anywhere but I chose malvern) would be beating most of those B riders lined up in a B/C class.
Now my thing is...why on earth would people say screw this B/C class. I'm not racing it. But likely, this is what would happen.
Now I know this is insane: but what if you (OMA/CRA) offered a B/C support class to the B riders and C riders for $10 somewhere in the program. If the C guys won't sign up then obviously kill it off. But can't we try something? But if it works, you could phase out the B and C class. Effectively eliminating 2, and filling the gate for 1 B/C class. And then let the national BS have at itself (which nothing will change) but atleast our local scene just got a helluva lot more fun to race.
Now Story's situation I don't blame him for running C class. He's within the rules. Scott Leighton a few years ago, same situation. He was within the said rules. This isn't about pointing the finger and making the riders look evil. If they are within the rules then let them do it.
I just wish we could eliminate the bull s**t at the local level and all have fun racing each other in full gates without screwing over the people who have to deal with the national sandbagging issue who are within the rules to compete. Locally the 25 C riders + 10 B riders = 35 on the gate. And I can guarantee you that the guys winning the C class (at malvern for example could be anywhere but I chose malvern) would be beating most of those B riders lined up in a B/C class.
Now my thing is...why on earth would people say screw this B/C class. I'm not racing it. But likely, this is what would happen.
Now I know this is insane: but what if you (OMA/CRA) offered a B/C support class to the B riders and C riders for $10 somewhere in the program. If the C guys won't sign up then obviously kill it off. But can't we try something? But if it works, you could phase out the B and C class. Effectively eliminating 2, and filling the gate for 1 B/C class. And then let the national BS have at itself (which nothing will change) but atleast our local scene just got a helluva lot more fun to race.
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adam63
PR Addict
J.O. you know as well as anybody, don't give them a choice. Make it a cactus and be done with it! Anybody who is not happy with anything during the weekend gets to hug the cactus.
Alex186
PR Member
Please don't take my opinions as "the AMA thinks", all rule and class proposals go through a AMA rules congress. There is actually some congress seats open here in Ohio. Here's your chance to get involved and make changes. Actually you could kind of be my boss.
As for this, "the AMA only does what Tim Cotter and Davey Combs say" stuff, this joke is getting kind of old. You guys are funny, you can come up with some more original then that?
As for this, "the AMA only does what Tim Cotter and Davey Combs say" stuff, this joke is getting kind of old. You guys are funny, you can come up with some more original then that?
GeorgiePorgie
PR Founding Father
Thanks, Obama?